"Does either Gopher or Gman want to copy and paste the chat log between them that game? "
Just in case this message was lost throughout the argument :P

G-Man....when you lie to people, they tend to not trust you and then they discount the offers that you make to them. An agreement with you would be utterly worthless. You had nothing of value to promise because no one believed your promises. For better or worse, I am an honest person. If I promise you something I try to deliver it. If I make a threat, I try to live up to it. I do not believe that I have anything to apologize for regarding this game. I thought Germany was a scoundrel and a bigot, and I chose to deny him what he wanted. My judgment of him turns out to have been more than justified. I was not trying to draw the game out as any element of game play. People like that need to be stood up to in life and no one else was willing to do it. You had a choice between an honest but disagreeable person and a bigoted, scoundrel. It does not reflect well upon you that you preferred the bigoted scoundrel. And I would like to point out that my confrontation with Germany began with my defending you and telling him that his behavior towards you was unacceptable.

If you pay close attention, I've never asked that you apologize to me. You accused Amby of being a cheater because you dislike me. Gentlemen do not behave in such a manner. You made a verifiable accusation and I simply asked that when the game was over and you did your checking that you apologize for being wrong. You may insult me in any manner that you wish personally, but I am not a cheater and Amby certainly is not. You besmirched our honor and you should apologize. You were wrong. It is self-evident that you were wrong. An apology is the appropriate response for a grown up. Amby did not cheat and it is childish for you to let your animosity towards me to keep you from behaving in a gentlemanly fashion towards Amby.

@fasces.....why?

both of you are claiming the other repeatedly called you an asshole, etc.

Well, the only way to find out is to actually post the messages in question

G-Man did not literally call me an asshole. I was incorrect about that. Searching for "ass" brought up 167 hits, but that was overwhelmingly Germany. My only problem is with Egypt accusing me (and Amby) of cheating and not apologizing now that he can check. I am annoyed that he is refusing to admit that he was wrong and at least apologize to Amby. He is mad because I called him "paranoid", which I did repeatedly. I did it privately and then he dragged the discussion into global and I made a point of doing it over and over again in global once he brought it up because it annoyed him. The game went on for 9 months. The chatlog is practically a novel. What it really boils down to is that I think that globally posting that you think someone is cheating is worse than privately being mean to them. G-Man is professing to believe the opposite. Of course, I don't actually believe that he believes that. I just thinks that he has to profess to believe crazy things because he is too infuriated by me to make any concession. This would be but the next in a long line of such professions of supposed belief. For example, he claimed to believe that disliking someone as an individual was identical to bigotry, which is precisely the hating of people because they belong to a particular group and thereby denying them individual humanity. I do not assert that he said they were comparable. He actually publicly argued that they were the same thing. No sane English speaker believe that. He is simply so antagonistic towards me that he cannot admit that water is wet, if I say it is so.

Well, then I don't really see the issue, unless G-Man is still convinced that you and Amby are cheaters...

Its an honest mistake that happened during an anon game, I have thrown many cheating accuasations in anon games, and seen many thrown back at me. Now that G-Man knows it was Gopher and Amby, if he is dropping then accusation then I don't think he did you any harm, Gopher.

Re lying: I didn't have any problems with anyone about lying. And I only lied to you and Turkey (and Spain once on the last move as payback for his three stabs). But even Turkey knew I lied because I was utilizing it to take the 1st strike opportunity and then put the pedal to the medal to eliminate him, which would have happened instantly had Russia not CD'd. I have plenty of meaningful agreements with all players not named Gopher.

And the bigoted scoundrel did not call me names, insult me, and berate me with his derogatory opinion of me as you did. Cheating aside, I still preferred neither of you and even called Germany out on his bigotry when he started it. But when he reformed, I was willing to give him a 2nd chance.

@G-Man....When exactly did he reform? Was that before or after he accused me of sodomizing farm animals? How about when he accused me of defending evil for challenging his bigotry? He seemed a quite proud bigot to me. I never saw any desire to back down from any of the bile that he spewed. You really are just blinded by your feeling for me, aren't you? Let's try this, the sky is blue; water is wet; fire is hot; BarrackObama is a proud and unrepentant bigot. Admit that these things are true even though I publicly proclaim them to be true.

@fasces....I just asking him to apologize. He said that he was waiting for the end of the game to check. The end has arrived. It can be as simple as "I am sorry that I falsely accused you and Amby of cheating, you insufferable asshole." I should not have to hound him over this. It is the gentlemanly thing to do. I said at the time that I expected either an apology or a mods complaint or both when we were done. He can call me an SOB; I just want him to admit that I am an honorable SOB and that Amby is not a cheater.

He stopped for months. I don't remember the exact dates. And then he started up again when you refused to stop taking the full phase for all moves, builds, and retreats, even though you only had a couple of units at that point.

1) You owe me an apology many times over before I would ever do anything that you ask. 2) I didn't accuse anyone of cheating. Guessing there might be that you two have been allies in prior games and being interested in seeing the stats is not the same as an accusation. Particularly after you were so rude, calling me names and berating me with how paranoid and crazy and out-of-touch with reality I was. And you guys made everybody wonder, because you admitted to exchanging press from other powers on the opening moves and because Spain continually passed up better opportunities and positions in order to continually back your fall.

Looking at the game, I don't think Amby passed up any opportunities besides a 1-2 sc gain from stabbing an ally.

In the early game, Spain and I could have taken out Italy and split the Med. This would have given him MAR, MON, ROM, and TUN, and me LIB, NAP, GRE, and IZM. All long before Germany was strong. Spain admitted this later. Spain's decision to send forces past Italy and into a war with me was also questionable, as there was not much to gain (he had nothing for most of the game, and when he finally got one center out of it, he lost it soon afterward), and those units could have been used in France, first, or against England later. Then in the midgame he could have picked up units from splitting Italy with me that would have allowed him to break through Britain and work with me in northern Italy to stop Germany before he was ever able to build on the Med. And in the endgame, he had an opportunity to work with me to plug Germany up when he might have only had one fleet on the Med. Instead, he turned down all offers and stabbed me three times for no real gain. There were a number of points where a few of us were wondering why he chose to protect a doomed Italy over making personal growth as well, all of which hurt his position and always kept him from becoming a major player in this game. Had Germany, Poland, and Britain not been meta-gaming and the position been real, he would have been eliminated as a result of not really doing what was best for Spain, but doing what was best for Italy. And a number of us speculated on this, including France, and Turkey, and myself, as well as the cheaters, Germany and Britain (or Germany if they were one person).

Last sentence was supposed to read, "Including France, Ukraine, and myself..."

Even in the end Spain would not work with Ukraine and I in order to protect Italy, who was then completely doomed. This might have allowed Germany to win, as the situation on the Spanish peninsula and in the Med (as well as the Balkans and Ukraine) was very tenuous, and that might have given Germany the center he needed to win vs. a draw. As Turkey mentioned, Germany's position was strong in the end and a lot of that had to do with Spain and Italy coming after me when they should have been plugging Germany up. But Italy gave me a threat: "Fake and attack or be attacked, those are your choices," and Spain played into that, which is what annihilated Italy and dragged Spain down even further in the end.

@G-Man.....you are making my case for me. My sending your messages to Amby happened more than a month into the game. Not on the opening turn. I told you pretty much right when it happened. And I told you because it involved you. I did not "tell everybody" nor did we exchange everyone's press. It was just your press and it was just the to me press. Don't you understand that I'm making a fool out of you on the forum? Do you think that you are seeming in-touch-with-reality in your responses? You lied to us. We caught you lying to us. There was zero chance of Spain betraying me to you from that moment forward. I told you this explicitly in real time. Your failure to understand this basic fact was and is baffling. I do not believe that anyone wondered why we refused to work with you. Other people had interacted with you. I'm not claiming that anyone was confused as to why you were obsessed with me either.

I have driven you to such a state of enraged distraction that you truly have lost touch with reality. You accused us of meta-gaming. That was the point of your throwing it out there. No one was confused by that. As they say in my part of the country, "Thems fightin' words." That is the great no-no frontier of behavior. It is completely of a different order from "I don't like you" or "You're a stupid mister poopy pants". Your accusation was out of line and demonstrably false. A reasonable person would recognize that he should apologize. You are just allowing me to make you look ridiculous on the forum in front of everyone. You are allowing me to make it seem like everything I have said about you is true. You are so overcome with blinding fury directed at me that you are actually defending a self-aggrandizing bigot just because you cannot accept as true anything that I claim to be true. Whatever you may think of me, you accused one of the best players on this site of cheating and been shown to be wrong. If your issues with me are really this all consuming, it is perfectly acceptable to me if you direct your apology solely to Amby. But you are not doing yourself any favors here. You're just letting me make you look unbalanced and ridiculous.

You made an accusation. You knew exactly what you were saying when you said it. Everyone else in the game knew what you were saying. I went at you immediately when you said it and called it out of line. I made clear that I expected an apology when the game was over and you had checked my completed games. You made a verifiable accusation. That accusation is demonstrably false. Reasonable people do not behave in this manner. A reasonable man would admit that he thought something a reasonable possibility based upon what he thought he was observing but that he was in fact mistaken and that apologies are in order. But please repeat the multiple draws line again because that doesn't make you look like your grasping at straws to deny reality at all.

you're, not your

I have an idea... gopher, why don't you apologize for insulting him repeatedly, G-Man, why don't you apologize for making what could be perceived as a cheating accusation at him(whether you meant it to be one or not)... and then you guys can shut up about it and we can all move on with our lives yes?

You guys seemed to know everything I was saying to each of you, verbatim, from day one. And a month in this game is only two moves, and two retreats, maybe a build. And again, making different offers to different players is not the same as lying. If Spain had taken me up on those offers and they were carried out, then you could say I was lying. But because you and he traded press from other players right away in an anonymous game, you knew I made you both different offers, and thus characterize me as lying. But I had every intention of following through on my offers to Spain, as I tried, when he stabbed me to help you with TUN. And at the outset, I tried to work with you, but as any of the other players in that game except Spain will tell you, you made yourself impossible to work with. And your berating me with false accusations and getting unnecessarily nasty and mean again. I have not defended Germany's heinous behavior??? You are also going round in circles, and I'm sure everyone is getting as tired of this as I am. Boy Goph, you sure know how to have a bad time!

@G-man

I've been in your position before and blamed others for doing something that wasn't logical or self-benefiting, but you have to acknowledge that your predicament was brought on by your aggressive play. Sometimes I play aggressively, but I only manipulate when I know I can clean up. Since you were closed in by Spain and Italy with it being too early to have 'established' negotiations with either of them, you closed yourself off diplomatically. I'm sure they were happy to fortify against you knowing that 1) you would be busy and 2) that you probably can't be trusted. Hell, I think I even told them that. You might have had a better chance at dealing with Italy or Spain if you had improved your reputation by dealing with me. I gave you that opportunity several times... I waited for 6 months for you to leave Adana, which was my only demand once it became apparent to you that war with me would not be a cakewalk and you were at risk of becoming an obsolete power. Of course you didn't, but for some reason kept trying to negotiate with me. It was apparent early in the game that no matter what you said, you would serve your own purposes. Amby and gopher are discriminate when choosing possible allies, and probably sensed that. This is all hindsight of course, sometimes you play it right, sometimes you play it wrong, or sometimes you play it right and it goes wrong anyway.

@gopher
As far as the 'accusation' goes, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Sometimes it's frustrating when diplomatic efforts fall on deaf ears, and we are quick to make assumptions when we are mad. So he alluded to the fact that he was suspicious of your behavior. I subtly made the same jab at Egypt when Russia was seemingly giving up his entire northern front to go against me, making it impossible for me retaliate against Egypt, and leaving Egypt the bulk of the paydirt. Remember when I said:

(re: Russia's nmr)
"Other possibilities still include loss of connection, incapacitation for some awful reason, or perhaps he was banned. Who knows the extent of the spell he was put under by the Egyptian conjurer?" (15 Sep 2011)

I didn't apologize for that, but it wasn't an accusation either. I only disclosed the fact that I had suspicions. The only accusation that was made is when I said "England Germany and Poland are cheaters" at the end of the game. While Egypt did question your integrity, he's been effectively proven wrong in his speculations. While an apology could be appropriate, it's senseless to demand one when both of you are in the business of rolling tanks through neighboring countries. I would consider his lack of effort in further accusing you as enough of an apology.

@G-Man....Oh you're so right. You did not defend Germany's behavior. You just denied that it existed. There was not months long period in which he behaved himself. Yes, you did lie to us. You were not simply making different offers to us. You claimed that each of us was trying to plot with you against the other. That was the point of my sending my press with you to Amby because he said that you were presenting conversations with me to him that clearly never happened. That is either lying or a rather definitional sign of mental illness.

Do I really need to find my message to you in the chatlog to demonstrate that you are lying right now? Name your stakes for a wager because I am absolutely certain that the moment we are talking about was not two turns into the game. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not intentionally lying right now and are merely speaking from complete ignorance.

@butterhead......just because G-Man's delicate little feelings were hurt does not obligate me to give a crap. I have seen nothing in his behavior to give me the slightest reservation regarding the general thrust of my description of him. If he is insulted, well, the truth hurts. Read his responses. He literally cannot admit basic and self-evident truths simply because I have claimed them to be so. I honestly couldn't care less what he things about me personally or what he says about me as a person; however, he made a specific verifiable accusation, which beyond being completely over the line of acceptable, can now be tested and shown to have been totally groundless. He has insulted one of the best players on this site in a particularly heinous manner. If like Sheldon Cooper, G-Man's mother had him tested then that would be a different matter.

@Everyone else.....Are you all paying attention? Watch closely and you can see how to deal with G-Man. I'm guessing that there is a family history of acute mental instability. Normal people don't get this worked up over having their mental state questioned. I cannot even communicate the hysterical sputtering and sulky response I got when I first brought it up. You need only question his mental state and he quickly becomes so enraged that he loses all capacity for rational thought and behavior. Just call him paranoid and his fury towards you will become utterly blinding and he will then do anything, no matter how ridiculous, to refuse to make any concession towards you. You can totally lead him around by the nose. He'll make wild threats and not follow through on them. Be sure to point out the hollowness of these threats in global chat. That will agitate him even more. Here is the soft underbelly where it is best to insert the knife and twist. He loses all real control.

@Raro.....I'm perfectly happy with G-Man apologizing to Amby. When you make that particular accusation and you then are sure that you are wrong, gentlemen apologize. The only time that I have ever made that accusation, I stated up front that I would sincerely apologize to both of the other players the moment that Oli told me that I was wrong. When he did, I apologized profusely.

@gopher - You copy pasted press? How fucking lame.

If I receive copy/pasted press... First, I don't trust it. I assume it is faked. Second, I consider the copy/paste player, whether faked or real, to be the lowest of the low. I don't care if G-Man lied to you or if he lies to me in a game. It's part of the game and a big part of real life diplomacy.

Finally, what happens in a game stays in the game. Quit drahhing it throught he mud here. That applies to both of you fucktards.

Sorry, but this thread makes both gopher and G-Man look bad, I'm going to have to mute it. By the way, I think I just figured out that G-Man got his name from Scott Pilgrim.

Well, it could also be a reference to an FBI agent. They used to be called G-Men.

@YCHTT.....I was asked by my closest ally for the third time to respond to G-Man claiming that I was trying to conspire with him against said ally, so I offered to let my close ally read all of my correspondence with G-Man. It assuaged his concerns about me. Mind you that all of this happened while we were trying to work with G-Man and I told G-Man about it immediately. My hope was that he would stop spending all of his time trying petty manipulations and accept working with us in a minimally honest manner. G-Man basically tried to stab me every time he offered to coordinate moves in any manner. He was dishonest all game in ways that were bafflingly self-defeating. And of course, he cannot understand why people did not do what he wanted them to do.

And for the record, he intimated that the third and fifth highest rated players on this site were my meta-gaming slaves. I'd like to think that that is an endorsement of my God-like powers, but really it is just a sad reflection on the accuser.....who still hasn't apologized for insulting Amby and being just so wrong.

@gopher - Maybe, under the described circumstances, I might consider it different. Unless I was there, I can't say for certain. But generally speaking, copy/paste is so easily faked that I still wouldn't believe you any more than if you just told me in your own words what he said. As far as his lying and you not working with him, hey it's his fault he can't be trusted and you have no obligation to work with him.

I lie in games. I do it quite commonly, but not every turn. I usually wait to lie until just before a stab. Just ask fasces about my recent stab and the lies I played the turn before. I don't know if he believed them, but I *think* they were believable enough and it resulted in my gainin two more SCs, leaving him at only 3 left.

Every tactic has it's place and time, whether it be a diplomatic tactic or a military one (like the support move to pull someone onto than SC and prevetn a build).

That is generally termed a militia support.

@G-Man....you still owe Amby an apology.

Well, Amby, have you received a private apology from G-Man?

Still no apology for incorrect cheating accusation. If you prefer to play games of lying and manipulation with gentlemen, avoid G-Man.

Nah, no apology.