Secondly, FvA *is* balanced. Not symmetrically, but both France and Austria have equal chance of winning. <--- according to the pages stats its not 50/50 and also here the set we talk about is way to small ;)

and yes no external luck factor... there is on no map, but a guessing luck factor... ;)

"according to the pages stats its not 50/50 and also here the set we talk about is way to small ;)"

Correct on both counts. The stats page for FvA shows Austria with 11 more solos in 152 games played. Statistically that's very minor, and is trending toward balance, as the ratio used to be larger. I like to attribute the recent FvA research to the French resurgence, but I'll spare the self-flattery and just observe that research backs the notion of balance and that the stats are clearly reflecting it.

Meanwhile GvI continues to be horribly slanted pro-German with no end in sight.

"and yes no external luck factor... there is on no map, but a guessing luck factor... ;)"

Luck, n. - Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.

No chance involved, therefore not luck.

PE:
"Hence my agreement to your proposed compromise (enacting the change for the elimination rounds)" "Hence, not immediately, mid-prelims, but before elimination rounds."

Very well. I'm happy we're not talking about retroactivity but about next Phase on. "New Phase, new Rules" is a minor evil.

Now please do one more effort and think about this:
Duo and Lepanto are perfectly-balanced.
They are perfectly-balanced and therefore they are the perfect-tie-breakers.
They are perfectly-balanced and therefore they are perfectly-boring. After 2 or 3 times you play them, you don't want to see them anymore.
I can't imagine HOW BORING the rest of the Tournament will be if we start playing all Duo and Lepanto games. So, can you accept one more compromise and let it be:

1) the players choose the map for games # 1 & 2. If they don't agree it will be I-G
2) the players choose the map for games # 3 & 4. If they don't agree it will be I-G
3) the players choose the map for games # 5 & 6 (quarters/semi/Final). If they don't agree it will be I-G
4) the players choose the map for games # 7 & 8 (Final). If they don't agree it will be I-G
5) the players choose the map for game #5 (4th place tiebreak) or #7 (quarters/semifinals) or #9 (Final) between Duo or Lepanto. If they don't agree it will be Duo*

Rules from 1 to 4 let you and your opponent decide how you want to have fun. Being couple of games, each Rule is balanced.
Rule 5 isn't funny**, but I agree any maps except Duo and Lepanto would be unfair.

Is this acceptable?

________
* or Lepanto, if you like. It doesn't really matter since they're equally balanced and equally boring.
** Rule 5 is also disvantaging me, since with the present Rules I could choose Germany in the 5-7-9th game, if I ended up my Group as 1st (which looks likely).

Hmm... pardon me if I'm misreading, but you basically seem to be suggesting sticking with GvI as the default up until the final/tiebreaking rounds.

I'm with you in saying that an all-Duo/Lepanto tournament would be a chore. (I'm actually finding my Duo match with RoxArt right now very enjoyable, but I suspect the map will get old fast; and after I think 2 rounds of Lepanto I'm already ready to be done with it forever. No knock on the map, just not my cup of tea.) I don't really want to see an all-Duo/Lepanto tournament either.

But I know I'd personally rather all-Duo than all-GvI, dull as it would probably get. And from what it sounds like (and again, correct me if I'm wrong), this proposal doesn't really change the issue of GvI being the default map except for tiebreakers... which, although certainly a step above not doing anything, strikes me as a Band-Aid for a bullet wound.

I have to run for now, I'll be back in a few hours, I think (hope?). Tell me if I understand your proposal correctly, first of all, and if so, any comments on my comments would be appreciated.

Hmmm...I don't see any reason to change the Rules, do you remember? I like the Rules as they are now and a not unanymous change it's an abuse.
My proposal it's a compromise, I give up something if you do the same.

Your proposal to change the rule for ALL games is like a bullet passing through my healthy skin, then through my flesh and it finally stops into my heart. I don't want you to shot me, but I can accept a scretch on my skin if it makes you happy.

This discussion started because, realizing that next Phases would have had an odd number of games, it looked unfair that a player could be Germany 3 (or 5 or 7) times against his opponent's 2 (or 4 or 6) times. My proposal COMPLETELY SOLVES this issue, so I think it's much more than a Band-Aid: you're healthy now Simon, you got well. So stop complaining, play and let's see how good you are.


Personally I wouldn't care, because if I don't want to play all I-G games I think I would be able to find an agreement with my opponent, but if you wouldn't and if it makes you more happy I could accept one more deeper scratch and we could change Rule 3 as following:

3) the players choose the map for games # 5 & 6 (quarters/semi/Final). If they don't agree it will be A-F

Only this one. You're more than healthy now, you should be jumping across the room because of a happiness mood's crisis. You've never been more happy than now, in your whole life. So stop talking about BandAids (and, please stop talking about maps and tactics with Rox, LOL), play and let's see how good you are.

****
This is the maximum compromise I can accept. If you don't like it, then NO CHANGE. Rules are Rules. I will choose my country in the serie's last game as stated before. Tell me what.
****


**** .Fasces?. ****

I think we should just change the default map to FvA for the next phase onwards, but if players agree then other maps are fine. I see no problem with this.

"Guys, the point is not the unbalancing of maps. It's to change a Rule while the tourney is in progress. This would be the most unfair thing. What if the 2 guys I beated 4-0 come back and say "Hey, I want those games to be restarted with the new rules!" Wouldn't it be right from their point of view? Yes. Would it be fair? No. Because they and I played by the SAME RULES. And we need to keep on playing by the same Rules."
This seems the be the best point as to why we should not change the rules.

thanks fasces!
as said for next tournament all the debates are clearly ok to do but for this we should just play it as started... :)

So here is the decided rules:
The rules will remain the same until the elimination phase. For the elimination phase the standard map is either Duo or FvA.

lol... Im out then...

as in resigning cause you don't get your map?

no cause rules get changed in an ongoing tournament I planned on playing on a map pursuing a certain strategy...

"no cause rules get changed in an ongoing tournament I planned on playing on a map pursuing a certain strategy..."
Before the finals you can pursue said strategy.

well but my strategy included finals
I don't care you can change, but i'm out on a change of rules in an ongoing tourney... I said from beginning...

fasces what's wrong with my proposal ?

1) the players choose the map for games # 1 & 2. If they don't agree it will be I-G
2) the players choose the map for games # 3 & 4. If they don't agree it will be I-G
3) the players choose the map for games # 5 & 6 (quarters/semi/Final). If they don't agree it will be I-G
4) the players choose the map for games # 7 & 8 (Final). If they don't agree it will be I-G
5) the players choose the map for game #5 (4th place tiebreak) or #7 (quarters/semifinals) or #9 (Final) between Duo or Lepanto. If they don't agree it will be Duo

This discussion started because, realizing that next Phases would have had an odd number of games, it looked unfair that a player could be Germany 3 (or 5 or 7) times against his opponent's 2 (or 4 or 6) times. My proposal COMPLETELY SOLVES this issue. So why change the rules so deeply? Players are still free to play all games A-F except the last. If there are so many people who like A-F, they will meet.
Changing the default map for ALL games is unnecessary and therefore highly abusive.

We've lost the starting point and we've got too far...

ROX:"im not just againast what you guys are saying I would even join a new tourney with whatever map you want as standard, but I do not like to change rules in a started tourney! "

I agree with this also.

Ok fine, only tiebreakers will be Duo, everything else will keep the standard I-G this is just to keep everything consistent...

The purpose of preliminaries is to determine the best players so they can go head to head. Changing the rules just before the finals defeats the purpose of preliminaries. It would be like having a checkers match to determine the best players for a chess tournament.

I would agree with Rox and Guaroz regarding a rule change mid stream without unanimus agreement. In my opinion, it makes the whole thing pointless. It would just be a series of games, not a tournament.

Wise! :)

Wise fasces I meant.
Devonian I agree with you but I feel like I can't ignore the tiebreakers' problem once that many competitors excepted it.

ehm why did I get replaced!?
I just dont get what's going on... as you did not change the default map I will continue play..
I also stated more than once that the only thing I would accept is to set the tiebreaker to lepanto or duo...
as this is now the case I will continue as planned...

"Devonian I agree with you but I feel like I can't ignore the tiebreakers' problem..."
I agree.

"Ok fine, only tiebreakers will be Duo, everything else will keep the standard I-G this is just to keep everything consistent... "
I agree.

"ehm why did I get replaced!?"
"lol... Im out then..."
thats why

"I just dont get what's going on... as you did not change the default map I will continue play.."
I did tie breakers is played with Duo...

"I also stated more than once that the only thing I would accept is to set the tiebreaker to lepanto or duo..."
I don't recall you saying that...

i did state that that would be acceptable if the normal games stay GvI default.... :)

when?

I can't believe this tournament spawned so much bad blood.

lol

(bump) New updates? A week has gone since the last one...