@Eden----Wait....what? You think the Andian highlands have the same climate as the Yucatan? I've been to Machu Picchu and I've been to Mexico City and the Mayan areas of Guatemala. It did not occur to me that they were the same climate. I would have guessed at least a 20 degree F difference in average temperatures.

The argument is that the inhospitable climatic/geological variety of lands between the the Incans & the Maya/Aztec, prevented trade, communication and contact between the 2 civilisations.

& could someone PM me the Google Wave for this?

well we dont have a wave for this lol, the discussion popped up randomly as we started bouncing off ideas, and I personally like the Aztec Civil War idea better than a version with Inca, since Panama and Central America could become a nightmare to get balanced even with archers because its so narrow

I've created a Google Wave for anyone who wants in

pm me.

PM me also... and please also put it on the "TO DO LIST"

what is a google wave? Im out of da loop.

I can put it on the TO DO LIST, but im having trouble figuring out how to add people to the wave

@gopher: Mesoamerican highlands (not the jungles of the Yucutan) are very similar in climate to the Andean highlands in which the Inca resided. If the Inca and Aztec/Maya civilizations had interacted in a meaningful way, the latter would almost certainly have understood the value of the llama as a beast of burden and introduced it to the highlands. Thus, I'm claiming that the fact that the Mesoamerican civilizations didn't adopt the llama indicates that those tribes did not interact. The explanation for why they weren't able to is due to the geography of the areas in between. There's a loose archaeological term called the Intermediate Area for parts of Honduras, Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, and the entirety of Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama. The utmost frontiers of Mesoamerican and Incan civilizations only barely went into this Intermediate Area; it was not inhabited to a significant extent before the arrival of Europeans. Thus, lacking in significant human population centers, there was no communication or trade through this area and thus no way for Mesoamerica and South America to interact.

I hope this makes more sense than my previous comments because I know I've been speaking in broader terms to this point - I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Yucutan and Andes were the same climate-wise. :P

@butterhead: Google Wave is an online resource where people can post in real time. Each conversation is called a 'wave.' It's a lot like an online chat, and since it saves everything put in the wave it's useful for collaboration on projects like these variant creation projects.

@Eden---I did check and the major Mayan site in Mexico is about 20 degrees warmer than Cuzco.

other factors include the differences between the foodstuffs that the 2 cultures harvested, and that whilst the Aztecs adopted writing from the Maya (due to trade/contact) the Incan had no writing - am I right here Eden?

@Kaner406, I have you added to the wave about this
@everyone else, if your interested PM and I'll add you to the wave

@Shep, next time when putting something on the To Do List, put it under the bar graph chart at the top also to indicate the progress and that's also normally where people look for what to do... and for the adding a people thing, go to the top under the topic title of that wave which should contain the pictures of the people involved in the wave, then go all the way to the right where there's suppose to be a plus button and click that and add the email/name/something or another

@gopher: "The major Mayan site" =/= "all Mayan sites," or even "all major Mayan sites." There were Mayans and Aztecs in the Mesoamerican highlands. Perhaps not as many (maybe not nearly as many) as in the much hotter, much more humid lowlands, but there was a Mayan/Aztec presence in the highlands, and had they been in contact with the Inca at all they would surely have adopted the llama.

And even if the climate was never such that they could adopt the llama or any Inca crops, the fact that there was no meaningful human presence in the Intermediate Area I described means there was no contact between the two, nor could there have been.

@kaner: Correct, the Inca did not have a writing system. That doesn't necessarily preclude them from having traded with the Mesoamerican civilizations who did, but it's another mark against the idea because one would expect writing to be picked up at some point through trade if significant trade happened. The crops, as I recall (need clarification) were also different and presumably may have been adopted. I'm not sure about that, though. The big items I remember were the system of writing and the domesticated llama. It seems highly unlikely to me that the two civilizations would have been able to interact at length without the Mesoamericans adopting both.

The crops were different, the Inca mostly used quinoa (sp?) and the Aztecs maize. I had listed them all together more for a fun idea than historically accurate, but I like that my random idea is now getting seriously considered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palenque average yearly temp of 79F

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuzco Average around 55F

But I know what you meant. Somewhere within Mayan territory there existed highlands where llamas could have lived and offered utility.

There has been some geographic evidence that some Central American and North American civilizations had some form of trade in pre-history, I know they've found Peruvian silver from pre-Colombian eras here in Michigan (you can tell by the imperfections where the silver came from).

Yeah, but money moves in bizarre ways. I remember reading a memoir by Kennedy's ambassador to Yemen. The start of the book is about walking into the souk in Aden and watching business being conducted in thalers. So in 1961, a market in the southern extremity of the Middle East was conducting business with coins minted roughly 3500 miles away by a state which had ceased to exist 90 years earlier.

I also wonder how they are certain that the silver is pre-Columbian. Spanish silver pieces of 8 were more prevalent in the US in 1776 than British Pounds. It is not hard to imagine Peruvian silver being melted down for various purposes.

Carbon dating of other items in the find and similarities to pre-Columbian silver artifacts found in Peru.

But Silver is inorganic. How would carbon dating on things made of silver work?

Oh, I'm an idiot. There must be bones and wood and shit buried with the silver.

"I know they've found Peruvian silver from pre-Colombian eras here in Michigan (you can tell by the imperfections where the silver came from)."

Well, wait. Peruvian silver is, obviously, from Peru. We're talking about something going across the entire American continent, then?

I'm honestly inclined to think that a Spaniard/some Spaniards acquired the pre-Columbian era Peruvian silver artifacts in South America and got them up to Michigan at some point. I'm also curious as to what was carbon-dated. You said other items in the find... is it possible that these other items could also have been transported by European explorers? That would actually seem to substantiate the idea, in my mind, since a European explorer who collected valuables from the sites of Natives who were attacked would certainly have picked up silver. Not quite money, but good enough for bartering and easily enough melted down and reused in Spanish currency.

I'm going to have to look this all up now. I learned about it taking my kid to the University of Michigan's museums, which I'm not really inclined to go to again. Dangit. :)

The range for Carbon dating is such that the organic material would have to be quite a bit older than 1500 to be identified as pre-1500 with certainty. I doubt much stuff would be moved that far by the Spanish. I'll repeat my previous observation, money moves in impressive ways. Pre-Bismarkian Prussia probably had little interaction with Yemen, but Prussia with Saxony, Saxony with Austria, Austria with Hungary, Hungary with Wallachia, Wallachia with Bulgaria, Bulgaria with Turkey, Turkey with Syria, Syria with the Hijaz and the Hijaz with Yemen seems a more likely path. Things used as money tend to not decay so the journey could take 50-100 years.

such stuff, not much stuff

I actually missed that post, lol. Would have helped, because having heard that anecdote (which is absolutely amazing, by the way) I'm fairly convinced that something similar happened here. I would maintain that it moved post-Columbus, though. The items traded were pre-Columbian, but silver would have been used as a trading commodity for a few centuries after Columbus arrived... there's plenty of time and good reason for a trade link all the way up from Peru to Michigan after the Europeans arrive.