Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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fairleym (955 D)
06 Jun 13 UTC
Need an account sitter 6/10-6/18
I am leaving for my honeymoon on Monday and have recently learned I will have no internet connectivity while I'm gone. I currently have 5 open games: Alcavre, Mystery Diplomacy, Celtic Britain, Indians of the Great Lakes and Colonial 1885 (though I expect Mystery Countries and possibly Celtic Britain to be resolved by monday).

If anyone will do me the favor I would appreciate it. I don't want to CD in my games and I have never missed a turn.
8 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
05 Jun 13 UTC
WW4
Another WW4 game going for any of those interested

gameID=14697
4 replies
Open
ksotello (966 D)
05 Jun 13 UTC
NEED SOMEONE TO PLAY AS KENYA!!
Been having some problems getting this game off the ground with Constant NMRs from new incoming players replacing others who CD'd.gameID=14120

Thanks!
1 reply
Open
Stanee (1149 D)
04 Jun 13 UTC
New Colonial Map Game
I want to create a new game with the new Map Colonial 1885, but i cant find it in the variants when i create a new game? What is going on?
1 reply
Open
About Rinascimento
About the Italian Rinascimento variant, it's one of my favorite variants and definitely one of the more meticulously made ones, but "Tyrrhenian Sea" is misspelled :/
0 replies
Open
cteno4 (835 D)
02 Jun 13 UTC
Mystery Countries! (???)
Please join. It's on the standard WWI map, and there will be three countries randomly chosen as playable. Should prove interesting.
1 reply
Open
tiger (1653 D)
31 May 13 UTC
tiger's team game
We need a replacement Brazil! gameID=13116
brazil is partnered with argentina (sendric).
anyone interested pm sendric userID=3445
6 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
02 Jun 13 UTC
Order Processing Error (Ankara Crescent variant)
gameID=14376 Autumn 1903. Notice that three units (Sevastopol, Black Sea, and Wales) were simultaneously ordered to Armenia, none of them under support. The move from Wales succeeded; the others did not.

This should be considered an error and bug-checked in the Ankara Crescent variant.
3 replies
Open
Argotitan (1182 D)
31 May 13 UTC
Intermediate Support Rules
Can anyone please judge these support maneuvers so I know which numbered armies get dislodged and moved?

8 replies
Open
Leif_Syverson (1626 D Mod)
31 May 13 UTC
Replacement Turkey Needed in WWIV game
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=14120

Shame on you Tyran for leaving when the going got tough!
1 reply
Open
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
24 May 13 UTC
Competitive Dip
On a suggestion from PE, I am interested in finding those people on this site who like to play competitive Diplomacy - the way it was first created. No pre-arranged draws, no unbreakable alliances...play to win, just like the objective says.

So, who's interested?
60 replies
Open
GOD (1830 D Mod (B))
30 May 13 UTC
Sitter(s) needed
hi!
i will be away during the next weekend, including friday, and i am afraid i wont be able to charge my smartphone or get internet access otherwise...as i have quite some games, it would be nice if two or three of you could take over for the time :)
1 reply
Open
Retillion (2304 D (B))
02 May 13 UTC
(+2)
Please, new request : units sorted by alphabetical order on the orders sheet.
I am playing my first Modern Diplomacy II game and I have had the HUGE pleasure to notice that my units are sorted by alphabetical order on the orders sheet !

It is so much easier and clearer to find my units that way ! Would it please be possible that units are sorted by alphabetical order on the orders sheet in every variant ?
44 replies
Open
Karroc (973 D)
31 May 13 UTC
Need replacement. Colonial 1885
Game just started, nothing lost so far
http://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=14576&msgCountryID=10&rand=40989#chatboxanchor
1 reply
Open
Sendric (2060 D)
31 May 13 UTC
Need a replacement partner in team game
http://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=13116

Need a new Brazil as my partner. Our position is decent if we can avoid further NMR's.
0 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
28 May 13 UTC
Replacement player needed
FOG GB gameID=14297 position appears reasonable (hard to say though it is FOG)
1 reply
Open
President Eden (1588 D)
21 May 13 UTC
(+2)
Testers wanted: Diplomacy 1815!
More or less what it says on the tin. More specific information to come tomorrow.

Map preview: http://i.imgur.com/bYQAWb2.png
55 replies
Open
Aranith (1355 D)
29 May 13 UTC
Sitter Friday-Sunday eve (MEZ)
Need a sitter for my 1 day phase games for above mentioned time period...
I have 8 games running but most of them a 2 day-games
0 replies
Open
Synapse (814 D)
28 May 13 UTC
Sitter needed
I've got 2 games on the go that I'd rather not CD - a WWII gunboat most importantly, and a Europe 1939 full press game. I'm away from the 30th to the 10th of June, so would somebody mind taking over for that period?
5 replies
Open
Hirnsaege (1903 D)
28 May 13 UTC
Colonial 1885 – ?
any chance to create a new colonial 1885 game?
i cant find the option in the new games dropdown.

the games running are either password protected or WTA / public press (which is a taste i don't like ...)
4 replies
Open
Spartan22 (1883 D (B))
01 May 13 UTC
(+1)
Summer Goal
I am currently finishing up my finals this week for school and will soon be on summer break. I was looking through some of the variants and realized there are a ton I don't recognize by the name and thought it would be fun to play them all.
69 replies
Open
GOD (1830 D Mod (B))
27 May 13 UTC
WWIV map question
is the ANT territory (eastern Caribbean) not passable for armies?
O_o
1 reply
Open
Safari (1530 D)
26 May 13 UTC
(+1)
Feature Suggestion: Delayed Vote Notification?
In the age of the mobile smart phone, it is quite common for people to accidentally hit a button they don't mean to, which usually breaks up the global chat and causes an extra envelope to show up for every player in the game.
6 replies
Open
Jimbozig (1179 D)
23 May 13 UTC
Another HoF thread
I am still not understanding some things. Can somebody explain the following:
21 replies
Open
taylor4 (936 D)
25 May 13 UTC
0-1
Bayern goal @ Wembley
0 replies
Open
Voting to start a match
I was wondering of it would be possible to create a new voting feature to start a match, so if there was a, say live game that was set to start in an hour, and everyone joined, they could vote to start it earlier
4 replies
Open
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Playing for the Win
More to come.
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drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
(+2)
Recently there has been a lot of discussion about PPSC v. WTA on the forum. And while it is a great discussion to have, unfortunately, I feel as though the conversation has skirted away from (and somewhat refuses to acknowledge) a situation that I feel is a major problem. Naturally I am referring to the title of this post: Playing for the Win.

WTA or PPSC aside, the only recognized objective in Diplomacy is to be the first to 18 supply centers. In fact, the ONLY outcome beside a solo recognized in the rules is a draw amongst all survivors, and even that is simply recognized as a secondary outcome which comes about when a solo attempt is stopped. However, many players on this site seem to find it OK to simply ignore the recognized objective and play for a different goal. This typically manifests itself with players who choose to go for a draw from the beginning, or near-beginning of the game, something that is most definitely NOT what Diplomacy was intended for.

Now, you might be saying, “Drano, where are you getting this whole idea of what Diplomacy was intended for? “. That is a wonderful question, and to answer it, we must go to the creator of Diplomacy himself, Allan Calhamer. In his article, “Objectives other than Winning”, Calhamer states,

“The assumption behind the 18 centre victory criterion is that, given 18 units to a disunited combination of only 16 units, the leader can in general eventually conquer the whole board. Thus, no country survives except his own. Critics have claimed that there are positions in which certain countries could survive by stalemate, or by regaining a combination of 17 or more units; consequently, the notion that a country gaining 18 units could sweep the board is not invariably correct. It is my opinion that this point is of negligible importance, because almost all of the games will not come out that way, and because the victory criterion must have some hard and fast definition, and because it takes a long time to acquire 18 units as it is.”

“Following the assumption that a power holding 18 units can sweep the board, it then appears that no power has survived the game unless he has achieved either a win or a draw. The reward for a draw, then, is the reward for survival in a dangerous world.”

These two quotes clearly destroy any attempt to claim survival as a legitimate goal in a game. Survival is nothing. Calhamer clearly states that he intended survival to be equivalent to a defeat, albeit, one that is assumed to happen after the game has technically ended. Therefore, when we teach Diplomacy to new players, we should NOT be teaching them with PPSC, as PPSC has a different end game where survival MIGHT be an optimal objective for some players in certain positions. To teach it this way is to teach it against the creator’s intent. Indeed, this is a strong argument for changing the default setting away from PPSC as the play style of PPSC can clearly conflict with the intended end-game play style that Calhamer wanted. Indeed, there are more quotes further down in the article that further take apart any attempt to defend a strong second or survival while letting someone else solo as a worthy objective.

Now, what about draws? Let’s see what Calhamer has to say about them.

“Giving equal credit to all those sharing in the draw also encourages the smallest power to fight for the draw, instead of giving up without a fight. If they give up without a fight, the larger powers may not get a draw either, since the leader may benefit from their collapse and win.
One of the bad features about scoring the draw equally for all participants is that some three or four players in a game might lose sight of the primary objective altogether, and play only to knock out the other players, after which they would probably have a draw, since none of them had manoeuvred to weaken the others. In this way, players might achieve above average results, at least until other players got onto them. However, they would not be likely to achieve high results, such as the highest places in a tournament, or for that matter, even a single victory. Thus, if the value of the draw were increased, there might be incentive to play for the draw from the start, which is anti-competitive; whereas if the value of the draw were reduced, there might be less incentive to unite to stop the leader, which would also be an anti-competitive result.”

The key line there is the one I bolded and underlined. Calhamer clearly states that anyone who plays only to knock out other players and then have a pre-determined draw has lost sight of the primary objective. His wording clearly implies that people doing this are in the wrong and as such, this should not be the way to play Diplomacy.

And so, where does that leave us? If we are not to play for a survive, and we aren’t supposed to play for a pre-determined draw, what ARE we supposed to do? Well clearly, Calhamer intended for each and every one of us to play for the solo. He intended for us to maneuver throughout the game to weaken our enemies (and yes, EVERYONE in the game is your enemy technically, even if you are ‘allied’ during the game) and to strengthen our position so that we would have a shot at going for the solo. It is the solo that is the primary objective, and one that people lose sight of too easily. He did not intend for us to sit back and just accept a draw because we were unwilling to make that risky play and go for the solo. He did not intend for us to say, “Well, I never like attacking allies, but I can’t solo if I don’t, so I’ll just draw”. He did not intend for us to draw because someone “played well” or any other “carebear” reasoning as some people call it. No, Calhamer intended for us to be risky and bold and to go for that ever-elusive solo victory. I’ll leave you with one last quote of Calhamer’s that I think should get the point across, and one that we really should take to heart with our playing here on vDip.

“This final attempt to contain the leader is sometimes one of the most dramatic and exciting parts of the game. Co-operation must be created among players who have been fighting one another, and who have set their hearts on other objectives; they must admit that goal they have pursued all game long, which are now within their grasp, have just lost their value, and may even be destructive. Frequently, they are out of position for the new encounter, and are better positioned to fight each other. They must form a line together, exposing their territories to each other. This is not the co-operation of merely being assigned to the same team. This co-operation is hard won over difficulties. This is Verdun.

Sometimes allies in this position take pot-shots at one another, trying to gain as much as they can without collapsing the alliance; sometimes they lack aggressiveness because they suspect each other. Almost always they come around to the grand alliance too late. History has seen aplenty of these things.

The opportunities for this final high battle, this Armageddon, this human drama, are, of course, dribbled away if a "strong second" player is within reach of second. He is the knocked-out bottom of the jug that might have contained the leader.”
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Annnnd I just realized any formatting I did in Word is gone, so bye bye bold and underlines : (
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+2)
Interesting, but you haven't explained why we should take Calhamer's word as precedent; his game has long since evolved and mutated, and it is as much belonging to the players as to the creator.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
You must recognise that;

-Surviving the game is better than not surviving, it reflects more skill and is therefore certainly more valuable than a straight defeat
-Draws occur when the lead player cannot solo, otherwise he would solo, OR
-Draws occur when the lead player has an alliance and wishes to win as a "joint solo" (Diplomacy doesn't offer this feature)
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
If we dont' take Calhamer's word as precedent, who's should we take? A vote of the players? That would only serve to alienate people of differing opinions. If we are to remain a cohesive whole, there should be some sort of baseline behavior that's expected of a player. Otherwise Diplomacy isn't Diplomacy anymore, it's something that's similar, and has the same name, but isn't the same at all.

Imagine Diplomacy in a world where the players have decided that survives are cool, and a legitimate objective. And so in most games, there is a solo, but everyone who survives, even with 1 sc, is happy. Is that REALLY Diplomacy? Or is it something else?

I guess the main question to you Synapse, is: What is Diplomacy? Is it just the hard set of rules? Or rules on supports and support holds and movement? Or is Diplomacy also the mentality of the player and the drive to get that ever elusive solo? I am a firm believer that Diplomacy is more than just it's rules, and encompasses the mentality and "spirit" of Calhamer's intent.
Leif_Syverson (1626 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
I'd be somewhat interested in playing a WTA game with SC win conditions set at 100% of the SC's (since we have that option), just to see how that changes play, and just for the fun of it.

Well said on all above. Being a variant site though, the PPSC scoring variant where survives retain value is completely legit as a variant and should be retained, but I agree, is in no way in the spirit of the original game.

Leif_Syverson (1626 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
If we dont' take Calhamer's word as precedent, who's should we take?

MeepMeep's view that we should change the rules of the game to match an 'internet' world?

Sorry, couldn't resist...
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+2)
Games evolve. That's what happens. I'm sorry if that upsets your nostalgia, but all the modern sports and games today are evolved variations of ancient games. Future diplomacy will not resemble Calhamer's game, and we should embrace that chance, not fight it. (I am not talking about survives and draws btw)
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Leif -

I believe I posted that PPSC is a valid variant. If not, I intended to. I in no way want to get rid of PPSC. I simply believe it is a variant, and as such, should not be the way Diplomacy is taught.

As for your point on Calhamer's word...exactly. Who's word SHOULD we take?

Synapse -

There is no such thing as a "joint solo". There isn't. We can not change the game to invent it and still call it Diplomacy. Or are you saying that it is a perfectly admirable if I were to go and join 10 classic games, setup a 3 way alliance in all of them, and then 3way draw without ever trying to win?
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
"I in no way want to get rid of PPSC. I simply believe it is a variant, and as such, should not be the way Diplomacy is taught."

This whole website is a variant of a board game. I don't know how purist you can maintain the game while adapting it for online play. The chat system and everything is completely different.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
So just because the chat system is different you want to completely change the game objectives?

That'd be like saying that since baseballs and baseball bats are made of different materials now, we should just change how they win the game.

Just because some things are different doesn't mean the core of the game needs to change. We adapted the chat system to the internet. That's all good as it gives us a new way to play. That does NOT mean we should change the game objectives.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
Drano, baseball is definitely a different sport to what it began as. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Why shouldn't the core of the game change?

I don't disagree with your arguments, but you're taking the approach of dogma and orthodoxy, which I'm not a huge fan of. Tradition is good, but progress is better.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Progress for the sake of progress is stupid synapse. We should only progress when it improves the game. And encouraging people to not try to solo does not improve the game.

As for baseball, its changed, but the core is the same. You win by scoring more runs. You don't play to tie. Same with dip. The core should stay the same. You win by getting 18scs first. You don't play to tie. Simple.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
It isn't progress for the sake of progress - it occurred naturally within an online community.

Nobody actually plays diplomacy to tie
Gumers (1801 D)
20 May 13 UTC
A lot of people plays diplomacy for the tie in this PPSC world... They just ashamed to admit it, since even they know it´s a despicable behavior and make then worst players and people...
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Really synapse? No one plays to tie? You must be the luckiest dip player never to see a 17sc player support an ally up to 17 instead of soloing. Or a team of 3 keeping a 1 or 2 sc power alive for no reason. No one plays to tie? Please.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
"Or a team of 3 keeping a 1 or 2 sc power alive for no reason."

If teams have alliances, then they may wish for a non-solo win, or co-operative win, which involves wiping out all the other players then drawing and sharing the points.
Gumers (1801 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
Diplomacy is not a team game. "Team players" are metagamers that wants to build a relationship in one game to use in future ones. They are just despicable cheaters.
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
20 May 13 UTC
Who is this Allan Calhamer? I though Guaroz invented Diplomacy...
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Synapse, there is NO SUCH THING as a team win except in special rule games. You are trying to completely change the game by inventing a "team" win. As gamers said, diplomacy is NOT a team game.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
*gumers. stupid phone autocorrect.
Retillion (2304 D (B))
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
People are different, see things differently and may have different objectives. As a consequence, why would some players want to oblige everybody else to play Diplomacy one single specific way ?

Couldn't we all TOLERATE each other point of view ?
Couldn't we all consider that another point of view can, in fact, be an enrichment ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ Leif_Syverson :

Do you realize that when the requirement for a solo victory is equal to 100 % of the SCs, it changes NOTHING if the game is WTA or PPSC ?

But anyway, I would also be somewhat interested in playing a game with Victory Conditions for a solo set at 100% of the SC's.

Anybody else ?
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Retillion -

The problem is, if we accept multiple points of view in one game, one side always loses out. We would be forced to segregate the community otherwise you'd have people who play to win in the same game with people who play to 3way draw. And unfortunately, in this format, those who play to win would almost always lose out to those who play to draw since by its nature, the draw group has more strength due to the power of 3 unbreakable allies. By the time the alliance is revealed enough to be sure, it's too late.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
(+1)
Drano you are the one with the problem. Nobody has a problem with you trying to get a solo win.
Captainmeme (1400 D Mod (B))
20 May 13 UTC
I would be up for an Ankara Crescent game set to 100% VCs, and with an agreement not to draw until 2000 :D That would be brilliant.

I'm not brilliant at putting my thoughts into words in debating topics, so I'll stay out of this one. I don't think anything said in the original post rules out survives as an objective, though. There are some situations when a place in the draw is out of reach - for instance, when you have 1 unit and someone is rooting for your elimination - in which case a survive is a worthy objective. However, a draw is always a better objective, IMO.

Anyhow, that's going into PPSC vs WTA, which is not the subject of this discussion. I just noticed the words "Survival is nothing." in the OP and this is something I did not feel was right.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Since you clearly have nothing useful left to offer this thread Synapse, I'd kindly ask you to refrain from posting further.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Captain -

If you reread the segment on survives, you'll see that Calhamer makes the point that even if you "survive" with a solo, the idea is that everyone would be eliminated by the person that solo'ed. The game ends because the assumption is that that person would go on to conquer the entire continent. Therefore, in a solo, no one REALLY survives except the solo-er.

Calhamer admits there are a few stalemate lines that could stop this, but realistically, they don't happen very often and as such, most of the time a solo means everyone dies except the solo-er.
Jimbozig (1179 D)
20 May 13 UTC
A survive is far and away the most embarassing result in a diplomacy game (1v1s not considered).

The people who play the game under the idealogy that a survive is better than a defeat consistently and unapologetically ruin games on this website for others. This counts for PPSC and WTA both.

PPSC is a variant for beginners, as, losing does not cost you as much. However, a loss is a loss for stat purposes, excepting that a defeat and a survive should be considered very different.

IMHO, a player with the following stats: 10% win, 40% draw, 50% defeat 0% survive has far and away better stats than a player who is: 40% win, 10% draw, 0% defeat, 50% survive.
Synapse (814 D)
20 May 13 UTC
"The people who play the game under the idealogy that a survive is better than a defeat consistently and unapologetically ruin games on this website for others"

Please explain. Surviving means you lasted X more years than somebody who was defeated quickly.
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
20 May 13 UTC
Jimbozig -

We may have had our difficulties and not gotten along when we play each other, but at least we can agree on a few things it appears : )


Synapse -

Again, if we follow Calhamer's logic that if someone solos, eventually everyone else on the board is killed off (remember, this is a game of European domination, not 18-sc domination. theoretically the game goes on until someone controls all scs), then a survive is simply a delayed defeat. And since a defeat is a defeat, no matter when you get defeated, a survive IS a defeat.

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134 replies
Synapse (814 D)
24 May 13 UTC
Vdip feeling
That feeling when there's one person online from your gunboat game and its the only person on the forums
4 replies
Open
ManMountain (984 D)
24 May 13 UTC
New Variants
Hi, what is the process for creating variants and getting them put on the site?
5 replies
Open
Evil Minion (967 D)
21 May 13 UTC
vDiplomacy Webserver
I tried to install the webserver on a local server for testing purposes and ran into some problems:
1) the documentations do not seem to match the downloaded folder
2) it seems like there are .sql files missing
3) when installing all .sql-files manually (in order) the webserver gives the following error message: "Error triggered: Unknown column 'u.showCountryNamesMap' in 'field list'."
14 replies
Open
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