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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
09:59 PM UTC
(+1)
To my German friends on here...
...wasting time on the internet today...and came upon a Uniper announcement about gas-to-oil switching at a power station and saw reference the German Federal Government's policy around "Ersatzkraftwerkebereithaltungsgesetz".
4 replies
Open
Fake Al (1747 D)
25 Aug 22 UTC
Best map variants ever made
Which maps variants are best designed in your opinion. Not necessarily your favorites. I’m thinking those that give fun and interesting gameplay for all players, but you can use your own criteria.
25 replies
Open
kestasjk (0 D)
13 Oct 22 UTC
(+2)
webDip merge
Hey all, kestasjk from webDiplomacy.net here.

I have a feeling this is going to get shot down straight away but that's totally fine; just want to lay out a long-term proposal for merging the code bases and see whether it's worth thinking about or if I'm barking up the wrong tree.
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tobi1 (1997 D Mod (S))
16 Oct 22 UTC
(+2)
From an operational perspective I currently do not see any urgency for vDiplomacy. So while I am open for the suggestion of a merge I am wondering whether it is worth the effort and the risks.

This site appears to be in a healthy state at the moment and far from decline. That is at least my observing impression without having participated in games here for quite some time.
The active user base is stabilized on ~1000 users for quite some time now, since Covid started and we may have peaked at a few 100 more. We used to be around only 400 active users a few years ago prior Covid and around the time Oli's active involvement ceased.
We appear to be almost bug free. Since we last pushed some bug fixes around March this year we received only one bug report related to a very specific browser incompatibility. There are a few known issues though, but nothing site-breaking I am aware of. The need for maintenance is quite low at the moment.

Technically, vDip could profit from a merge and webdip's current better maintenance though as e.g. existing risks like breaking changes in infrastructure can be dealt in a better and less disruptive way than it was the case here a year ago.

WebDip introduced some very interesting features over the past years that are not available on vDip. Most notable are the bot games and the new user interface. Both are currently not very likely to be ported to vDip.
Bots can per design only play Classic games (and FvsA, GvsI) and are - as far as I know - hosted externally. Thus, it does not make sense and may not even be possible to have them here on vDip. But vDip's users would likely not benefit a lot from a merge as well since the restriction to the Classic variant would likely persist.
The new user interface adds a more modern view with a higher resolution full-screen map and a modernized chat interface. It also has a point&click order submission feature similar to what we have here at vDip. The new interface currently does not support any variants. In its current state it does not appear be designed in a way that makes variant porting simple and very low time-effort. This makes it less attractive as a feature to be introduced on vDip with its 134 active variants, unless there is a high demand for it. But providing full support for the 134 variants in a WebDip merge will also cause high efforts of work.

In general I welcome any efforts to port vDip features back to WebDip if the proved to be stable and enhancing the website. That is the spirit of the open source projects and any contributor would probably be happy about their work being used by more users and continue to persist.
Currently both pages have their own focus, character and right to exist. vDip's is currently the strong focus on variants (and maybe more reliable player base?), it also used to be the place for faster development and more experimental features. If WebDip evolves in a way that makes it more attractive to the vDip community and users decide to switch over to WebDip, that would at the moment probably an ideal solution in my opinion.
However, forcing a merge at the wrong time, when WebDip is not ready to fulfill all the expectations of the vDip community, could just result in a loss of a diplomacy community with only minor benefits.
So I tend to advocate keeping vDip as separate page for now and as long as we are willing maintain it. Let its relation to WebDip evolve naturally as the coexistence of both vDip and WebDip with their different focus currently appears to make the most of the WebDip code basis. vDip of course is and will always be part of the WebDip family and its legacy.
tobi1 (1997 D Mod (S))
16 Oct 22 UTC
(+2)
Additionally some facts on arguments mentioned earlier in the discussion:

Enlarging the community: vDip does currently have ~1000 active users, WebDip has ~1500. Given that there is likely a significant overlap and some drop-outs during a merge, we could end up with maybe ~2000 active users in the end. So for vDip that would mean a community doubled in size. Such a community will likely have similar characteristics regarding general activity and a bit more but no too much more variance in your game opponents. For example I guess it will still be possible to meet people on new boards again and building up some site-wide reputation.

Development stagnation and code access: It was stated several times that we have development stagnation due to missing code access. That is not entirely correct as I received access to the servers from Oli last year and still maintain that. So in principle, if anyone wants to contribute with new features that path is open.
It is just that there is now ongoing development as it used to be and that there is no-one with capacity to offer the support for variant development as Oli used to do. Nevertheless, if someone manages to develop a variant by their own without assistance we can probably add it here as well.
tobi1 (1997 D Mod (S))
16 Oct 22 UTC
*no ongoing development
ubercacher16 (1795 D)
16 Oct 22 UTC
(+1)
@JECE,

I would argue that the soloist being the lone winner is a more important rulebook stipulation than "everyone share equally in the draw." Besides, who cares how the rulebook adjudicates draws? Games are allowed to chance on occasion.
christinaFeggy (1492 D)
16 Oct 22 UTC
(+1)
I agree with uber here. The options for scoring should be DSS and PPSC (and maybe sum of squares), where winner always takes all in a solo but the game creator can decide how points are split during draws.
gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
16 Oct 22 UTC
(+1)
Interjecting as an economics geek: (i) complex contracting increases the variety of sustainable equilibria; (ii) individuals possess a distribution of preference systems and at least a soft preference for variety at the margins; (iii) individuals generally know at least as much about their idiosyncratic preferences as other individuals do; (iv) individuals are normally rational and maximizing over their own preferences; (v) individuals are not compelled to join games on this site involuntarily; (v) "the rulebook" is ultimately the ex ante agreement among the players of a game about the environment under which they will compete within the game.

Stipulating that this or that set of pre-game arrangements must be forbidden is implicitly suboptimal and almost inevitably dilatory in terms of aggregate social welfare. Some measure of individual players can be made happier and better off by allowing additional options without making anyone else worse off. The one caveat would be if more game variation makes filling games measurably more difficulty, but that itself would result in individual players altering their behavior in terms of selecting game options.

I personally view "gunboats" as a distinct and separate game that I term "Tactics" as opposed to "Diplomacy". I judge hosting that alien game on a website calling itself a Diplomacy community an abomination and a crime against both logic and basic truth. However, allowing the poor benighted, heretical souls the option to collectively engage in their perversions clearly increases social welfare on the site, and thus, I am not allowed to impose my preferences upon the group. This is even though I am clearly and inarguably right whereas everyone who disagrees with me is both wrong and alienated from the truth that defines the essential transcendence of the Universe.
JECE (1534 D)
17 Oct 22 UTC
(+1)
ubercacher16 and christinaFeggy: We can argue about the merits of PPSC till we're blue in the face, but I don't think that this thread is the place for that debate. And the bottom line is that your vision of an alternative scoring system does not exist. My point was that PPSC as it used to exist on webDip is still used on vDip, where it remains popular. There are currently exactly 100 unpaused games running on vDip right now (excluding 2-player variants). Of them, 35 are PPSC games and 65 are WTA games, despite the fact that WTA is the default and despite the fact that you can't find a good description of PPSC anywhere on the website. If more than a third of games on vDip are PPSC, even with the aforementioned limitations, then is stands to reason that many vDip users would want webDip to reenable PPSC scoring before any merger. Remember that nobody is proposing that we suppress your ability to play WTA/DSS games.
kaner406 (2243 D Mod (B))
17 Oct 22 UTC
(+2)
Hi all,

I thought I would let everyone one that Amby, Kestas and myself had a big long recorded discussion about what a 'merge' would look like, the various different options, concerns, ideas, ways to go about it and more.

Amby and me will be catching up on Wednesday to put the discusssion into context and aim to post the recorded interview up at some point this coming weekend.

While I don't want to pre-empt any of our conversation, I feel that it is important to let you know that this is by no-means a set-in-stone deal. In fact the timeline on something like this would likely take place over a year, and should it go ahead it would require significant community buy-in before any such move goes ahead.

It was also important to note that there are multiple options available to us, and that there is a strong agreement that the community which has been built here should be kept at front and centre in any decision making moving forward.

Now what that looks like, it is still to early to tell, but needless to say (imho) the discussion that this has prompted is a healthy step in our collective understanding of what we want out community to be.

I look forward to the discussion that the interview will hopefully create, and in the meantime I am really enjoying the views and ideas that members are putting forward in this thread - even if we are sliding tangentially into a discussion on the merits of different point-systems right now.
Enriador (1507 D)
17 Oct 22 UTC
>we'd become more lax about adding new variants, and we could allow authors to add new variants on a testing site.

This is a very kind proposition, and a massive break of webDip's tradition of "less is more"! I am positively surprised to see you guys have embraced variants to the point of not only suggesting to absorb vDip's past work, but also allowing new creators to dive in and create new experiences.

Regardless of whether a merger happens or not, it's amazing to see webDip being bolder in regards to hosting variants in the future. At the very least you should adopt the Dev tools that Oli labored so much to create, which allow pretty much anyone with enough patience and love for the game to build new variants from ground zero while still requiring input from the admin to actually implement/verify the work.

In regards to scoring... I like Sum of Squares. It values solos and being close to a solo which is good enough for me, even if it has its issues. What I have against PPSC isn't much the system itself (of sharing points per SCs) but the fact that a win does not take the whole pot. It just sounds alien to me. If PPSC worked like SoS/Draw-Size Scoring/etc in regards to solos and only applied its unique tweak to draws, it would be less disliked at webDip, I suspect.

Best scoring system is probably Tribute anyway (or even more, Half-Tribute) which has been implemented in Diplicity + a myriad FtF tournaments and works wonders. Unsure if webDip could handle it.
GOD (1678 D Mod (B))
18 Oct 22 UTC
I second tobi1‘s assessments on the site’s health, doesn’t seem worrying at the moment and hasn’t been for quite a while.

That being said, the rather restrictive approach to Forum, variants and features by webdip has always been quite off-putting to me, while that does not change, I am not interested in any mergers or acquisitions.
GOD (1678 D Mod (B))
18 Oct 22 UTC
Ere this sounds too harsh, I appreciate your friendly words and good intentions concerning the matter, kestasjk, talking freely about the matter is good and maybe a time may come, when a merge appears to fit better, at least to me :)
Rancher (1383 D)
19 Oct 22 UTC
(+2)
I guess I am in the minority on all of this, I have played both Vdip and Webdip for a great many years under the same username. I enjoy both. I have been on Vdip a little more in recent years, but I still play both. As long as the quality of games still exists, I have no issue with staying separate or with combining.

However - I have tried to say this before long ago and I just stopped due to deaf ears. From 1980 until discovering these sites, I played live in person. Virtually never, even after many beers and 2 AM, did we ever have a "winner take all". I was lucky to play with great players live, but the play was such that it would have taken us 10 hours well into the next day to get a solo winner - the reality was that 90% of our games for 30 years were draws, much more like the PPSC being discussed. When I joined the sites PPSC just seemed natural to me, being totally out of tune with there even being a dispute ... but I don't have any other comments in an existential nature about the future of these sites - I just want them to exist (and have donated in the past to help, would do so again)
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
23 Oct 22 UTC
(+6)
Hi everyone, our interview with Kestas exploring this further is now available at https://diplomacygames.com/vdip-webdip-love-match/ or if you search for Diplomacy Games in your fav podcast player it should be there in a few hours.

Thanks again Kestas for your time and your ideas. It's a great conversation for the community to have and really appreciate you covering the options!
GOD (1678 D Mod (B))
24 Oct 22 UTC
Really nice to be able to listen to actual people lay out the points rather than just have written words, thank you :)
JECE (1534 D)
25 Oct 22 UTC
(+1)
Thanks for posting the interview, guys!

Just on a factual point, I'm going to guess that the 1,040 active vDip players vs. 1,557 active webDip players isn't accurate. The statistics at the bottom of the page refer to users "Playing" games, but what if those numbers include users in paused games that will never unpause?

If we look at the vDip and webDip halls of fame, we have 573 active vDip users to 1,654 or 1,380 active webDip users. These figures refer to players active in the last six months who have points/rating higher than newly registered users. Granted, these figures seem to include users who visited the site but haven't actually played a game in the past six months, and they may exclude much of the new userbase, but these figures seem to be closer to reality.

There are actually more paused games on webDip than vDip (162 paused games on vDip vs. 208 paused games on webDip). However, only 150 of the 312 active games on vDip are unpaused, whereas 513 of the 721 active games on webDip are unpaused.
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
03 Nov 22 UTC
(+1)
Thanks JECE for listening to the show. Good points!
taylor4 (936 D)
03 Nov 22 UTC
Once again, Webdip now closed 4 repair(s).

Never join w/ Them.
kaner406 (2243 D Mod (B))
04 Nov 22 UTC
They're doing a big update on their infrastructure to cope with an expected influx of players.
vlgambini (1015 D)
05 Nov 22 UTC
In counting the active games running on vDip vs WebDip, are bot games included in the WebDip count? At any given time, there are quite a few active bot games running on WebDip. If those are excluded, my hunch is, the number of active, running games might be about the same on each site. I say that because I play on both sites, and I regularly look through the New Games forming, to see if there is one I'd like to join. The number of New Games on each site seems to be about the same at any given time.
vlgambini (1015 D)
05 Nov 22 UTC
(+1)
I went ahead and did the counts. At this moment (chuckle) there are 153 active, running, human-only games on WebDip, and 145 active, running human-only games on vDip. This count does not including paused games or bot games. There are 373 active, running, bot games on WebDip.
JECE (1534 D)
06 Nov 22 UTC
That's interesting. Did you have to count the bot games manually?
vlgambini (1015 D)
06 Nov 22 UTC
(+1)
Yes, sort of. All bot games have a 3-day phase length. I ran a search of active, running games with 3-day phase, and I went through the 381 results manually to see how many were human games that happened to have 3-day phase. It went pretty fast. There were only 8.
kestasjk (0 D)
08 Nov 22 UTC
Thanks Kaner and Amby, always great to have a chat, and thanks to you all for the interesting discussion.

To give some closure to this: I think I've raised this as a possibility and given my thoughts and some options to be considered, which is all I set out to do. I think I overestimated by a large amount the inactivity and troubles here at vDip, and the general mood is cautiously positive at best and somewhat lukewarm for the most part. (Also we certainly have our own stability and moderation problems to deal with as some have pointed out.)

Given things are ticking along fine etc, the suggestion and options are out there to be considered, the offer is open and there's plenty of time to weigh and revisit it I'm happy to shelve this for now and wait to see how things go over the next 12-24 months.

All the best, great to see vDip is still humming.

- Kestas
kestasjk (0 D)
08 Nov 22 UTC
* the general mood - as in general mood towards the idea of some sort of merger, not the mood of vDip members, if that wasn't clear
Dejan0707 (1986 D)
08 Nov 22 UTC
Since both webdip and vdip are great and I like them the same, for me either option would work. Still great to see democracy in action and voice of the people being heard.
Hirnsaege (1903 D)
Tue 06 PM UTC
(+1)
didn't have the time to fully dive into this topic, and I'm currently not active as I can't invest enough time to be a reliable player... yet this is something I'd appreciate to happen.

I started on webdip around 2011 and played there for some years (HalberMensch is the account over there) ... then discovered vdip and was attracted by the variants - to find out many are excellent and worthy to be in a spotlight, some are fun to explore, and many are failed or abandoned without taking off ...

I always considered vdip to be more fun and vital, and webdip more serious, for those with more committment (maybe I'm wrong about this though, it's just my impression and does not do justice to the excellent regular players over here on vdip).
but by now i'm quite afraid vdip is going to die - there were times when admins had no acces to a crashed platform to repair, and it took weeks to get it up and running again, with some games lost. it's just difficult to invest a lot of time an a platform that could blow up any time.

so i'd be very pleased of some of the more innovative stuff of vdip could he found on webdip, including a whole lot of proven and maintained variants - in my opinion many are good enough to be worthy of a more official platform. it has also more potential to move forward there, if Oli is not coming back with full focus anytime ... currently proposals seem to land in the "good idea but we can't do it without Oli" drawer, which is sad.
as for merging the ladder - I honestly don't care currently. I'd even join a merged platform if I was reset to 1000 base points.

In the spirit of contribution and open source spirit: if there is any need ever for someone with frontend experience (templating, html, CSS, JS, graphics design, but especially organizing information and functionality in an easy to get and use way), I'd be open to contribute. this is not at all about changing the look and feel of the site - it's old school but efficient. But I think webdip/vdip has grown the last years with more and more features implemented here and there, with a technical perspective first, and the organisation of information has suffered by this. I tried to propose (here, over at webdip, and in a non-existing phpbb forum for webdip Devs?) some rework of the interface back in 2016 to show some things that could be improved by reorganisation to make the game more friendly for beginners, but it didn't take off then. this stuff is still somewhere and could be re-evaluated (with 7 years more experience as UI/UX designer) if there is any interest.


56 replies
Paddy (1144 D)
Mon 05 PM UTC
Phase Swap?
In the "Create a New Game" tab, when you select the "custom phase length" option, a new drop-down menu appears: "Time Until Phase Swap." It has options ranging from "No phase switch" to 6 hours. I can't find any documentation on what this does. Does anyone know? Does it make retreats and builds shorter than movement turns? Any help would be appreciated!
1 reply
Open
kaner406 (2243 D Mod (B))
Thu 24 Nov UTC
(+3)
Artificial Intelligence for Diplomacy has arrived
Check out the author list as well...

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ade9097
14 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
02 Sep 16 UTC
(+9)
New podcast for online Dip games
Hi everyone

Kaner and I have started a podcast about playing Diplomacy online....
320 replies
Open
David E. Cohen (1000 D)
Thu 17 Nov UTC
vDip Discord Server?
Why isn't there one? It seems like every other large or small forum or group has its own Discord server.
11 replies
Open
butterhead (1147 D)
21 May 12 UTC
(+14)
Advertise your NON-live games here!
In an effort to compromise the pro-ads versus anti-ads for games: Post here for your non-live games to cut down on the number of ads but still advertise games. Post game link, WTA or PPSC, and the bet. Note: this doesn't count for special rules games.
3266 replies
Open
Qapoleon (1000 D)
Sat 19 Nov UTC
Variant Cataloging
I've been trying to keep track of variants made. Recently Stephen Agar came back on the scene and I am helping him amass variants over the past 20 years or so of his inactivity. I've made a google spreadsheet that contains the ones he's cataloged on his various websites and added a bunch that I knew of. I've also made a form to submit variants to be cataloged.
8 replies
Open
Minihugo (897 D)
Sun 20 Nov UTC
Post a variant?
Hey guys! Im wondering is I can suggest a variant to be added to the site? and if so how?
4 replies
Open
gman314 (1016 D)
12 Mar 11 UTC
(+26)
Winning
Oli won.
On Imperial Civilization's off-topic thread (link inside), there was a brief stint of Second to Last Person to Post Wins. Now that the thread is closed, Oli won.
10043 replies
Open
David Hood (976 D)
Fri 18 Nov UTC
November 2022 Deadline News is out!
Latest edition of Deadline News is out, from the Diplomacy Broadcast Network. Lots of hobbyist interviews from World Dipcon, a discussion with Ed Sullivan about his experiences arguing a case at the US Supreme Court, and headlines from around the World of Diplomacy.
https://youtu.be/GwbEfZLmGoY
0 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
22 Apr 22 UTC
(+1)
Ankara Crescent
London to Bulgaria
Edinburgh to Naples
Liverpool to Ionian
63 replies
Open
gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
21 Oct 22 UTC
Provocative Question
If Xi Jinping had been recruited as a long term, deep cover agent by the CIA (perhaps during his visit to Iowa) a la Günter Guillaume, Anthony Blunt or Eleanor Iselin, what would the CIA have him doing differently to sabotage China as a potential competitor of the USA?
24 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
25 Sep 22 UTC
One bourbon, one scotch and one beer
Thoughts on the topic?
26 replies
Open
Flame (1092 D)
05 Nov 22 UTC
(+1)
Forum avatars
We have got a new feature on webdiplomacy.ru.
Avatars for users. Please check it out here:
https://webdiplomacy.ru/forum.php
8 replies
Open
kaner406 (2243 D Mod (B))
19 Apr 22 UTC
Bourse 2022
Bourse 2022 sign up thread...
111 replies
Open
Lord Saviour (1341 D)
03 Oct 22 UTC
We need something to resurrect the forums. Any ideas?
Cars, politics, sports or even Jesus if it comes to it. We need to talk about something. It hurts to see the Winning thread dying. Maybe it is time to replace it with something completely new...
34 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
03 Nov 22 UTC
Weird weather?
It's like less than a month until summer here in Australia and we're going through a cold snap. Those in the northern hemisphere have you got similar whacky stuff happening with warmer than normal (or something else odd) going on?
18 replies
Open
The Ambassador (1988 D (B))
03 Oct 22 UTC
Putin & your Dip spidey senses
As Diplomacy players I think we’re particular attuned to seeing a geopolitical situation get out of control….
105 replies
Open
drano019 (2716 D Mod)
25 Oct 22 UTC
VDip Community
See Below
5 replies
Open
GOD (1678 D Mod (B))
24 Oct 22 UTC
The least played variant
It’s this, with just four games:

https://www.vdiplomacy.com/variants.php?variantID=54
11 replies
Open
gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
20 Oct 22 UTC
Anarchy in the UK
British Politics seems to be taking over the "Putin for Diplomats" thread. Offering such discussions a home.
8 replies
Open
Xenon Radon (1920 D)
20 Oct 22 UTC
How does the Rank system work?
I'm curious why everyone else with 1800+ points are "Diplomat" but I am ranked as "Experienced".
15 replies
Open
David Hood (976 D)
20 Oct 22 UTC
Oct 2022 edition of Deadline News from the Diplomacy Broadcast Network
Hey there Diplomacy fans, the latest issue of the Diplomacy Broadcast Network's monthly news show has just been released. An interview with the TD of the upcoming World Dipcon in Vermont, a panel discussion about using Dip skills in everyday life, and headlines from around the world of Diplomacy. https://youtu.be/aIhQESKW04g
0 replies
Open
Rancher (1383 D)
19 Oct 22 UTC
Favorite Variants?
As mentioned recently, the forum could use a little reboot with some casual but relevant conversation. Naturally, then let me ask all of you to discuss your favorite variants here, and then we can all tell you why you are wrong

Those who know me well will not be surprised that I say Rinascimento and Germany 1648
2 replies
Open
Qapoleon (1000 D)
16 Oct 22 UTC
New column in the variants list?
Was browsing statistics and was thinking it would be sweet to see the standard deviation of the performance values listed on the variants list page. That way you could essentially sort the collection by how balanced it is.
0 replies
Open
Quarantino (1000 D)
16 Sep 22 UTC
1900 New Game Available
Tillers of the Poppy Fields. Someone's gotta do it.
2 days. 20 points. Random country.
1 reply
Open
AJManso4 (2095 D)
04 Oct 22 UTC
Question - Brain fart
Say there are 5 provinces in a sealane. C is the center. A, B, C, D, and F are placed like this. All 4 of them can touch the other.
5 replies
Open
frostwind (1395 D)
06 Sep 22 UTC
Temporary Replacement in Unranked 50 States
tl;dr will be touching grass and hauling ass, someone plox manage a dozen+ center power in my absence for up to 10 days. willing to negotiate if my replacement wants to keep the power or some other compensation.
6 replies
Open
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