I have found in playing this 2 or 3 times that Foggia is a very important province

I actually think that this map should be one of those where you can only bet 1. I think it's unfair that Turkey, France, Pisa, Ferraro, have to make the same wager as Venice, Milan, Napoli, etc. There chances of winning are significantly lower...

I did very well in a game with Turks before the crash

@shah: That's why it has a different pot distribution system.

Foggia is an important province, but it is rarely a point of contention late enough in the game for a 9-way battle to be possible.

Interestingly enough, most of the wide-open territories are Neapolitan or in the Neapolitan sphere. Naples, therefore, MUST expand to envelop them, or they'll have them as poor defensive lines.

Why Sienna should be Stato's best friend:

Sienna sits in a very precarious position. Firenze looks hungrily at the SC's there for grabs, whilst relishing the idea of finishing off a potential competitor early on in the game. Surprisingly enough Stato seems (often) quite willing to allow for Sienna to be eliminated early on in the game. But consider this, should Stato step in an assist Sienna in survival against a more strategically blessed state then:
a) Sienna would be beholden to Stato for its very survival
b) The Firenze war machine would be stalled (those clumped clusters of SC's would be a long time in breaking open for any would be invader)
c) By assisting Sienna westwards Stato creates an obviously neutral zone, with Sienna's forces gathering momentum moving westwards and northwards. Whilst the opposite is true; if Stato either turns a blind eye or actively assists Firenze against Stato then Firenze gains momentum in precisely the direction Stato least desires it, eastwards.

Now whilst good diplomacy creates interesting alliances, I am surprised that (to date) Stato often seems willing for Sienna to bite the dust early on...

As always further discussion will be most welcome.

Regarding open arena's, it is in Genovan/Pisan waters that the highest areas of adjacent territories occur - namely Bacino del Giglio (12) and Channel of Corsica (11).

totally agreed with what you said about sienna, kanner

Here is a rundown of Provinces:

Number of.Adjacent Provinces - Name (Number of SC's adjacent)

12 - Bacino delGiglio (6)

11 - Channel of Corsica (4)

9 - Laguna di Venezia (3), Eastern Thyrrenian Sea (3), Channel of Sicilia (4), Inner Ionian Sea (3), Foggia (4)

8 - Gulf of Genova (4), Western Thyrrenian Sea (1), Bacino Avventura (2), Terrazzo delle Tremiti (2), Catanzaro (3), Adria (4)

7 - Eastern Ligurian Sea (3), Northern Sardinian Sea (2), Arcipelago di Spalato (2), Litorale Adriatico (3), Dalmatian Sea (3), Aosta (3), Cremona (4), Milano (3), Spoleto (3), Chiusi (3), Sulmona (3), Torino (2)

6 - Western Ligurian Sea (3), Western Mediterranean Sea (1), Terrazo delle Lipari (1), Gulf of Taranto (1), Coast of Bari (2), Saluzzo (3), Asti (2), Vercelli (4), Casale (3), Lodi (4), Bobbio (3), Genova (1), Brescia (2), Verona (2), Vincenza (4), Chioggia (2), Mantova (4), Ravenna (2), Sarzanna (5), Ancona (0), Viterbo (3), Roma (1), Potenza (3), Messina (2), Catania (1), Oristano (2), Fiume (4), Pisa (1), Rimini (3)

5 - Southern Sardinian Sea (1), Fossa di Pantelleria (2), Coast of Amalfi (2), Stretto di Messina (2), Channel of Otranto (2), Central Adriatic Sea (0), Briancon (3), Nizza (1), Novara (2), Savona (2), Alessandria (2), Pavia (1), Sondrio (4), Arco (3), Piacenza (2), Treviso (2), Aquileia (2), Trieste (1), Ferrara (4), Comacchio (2), Forli (3), Castel del Rio (2), Firenze (2), Piombino (3), Siena (3), Frosinone (3), Napoli (1), Amalfi (1), Taranto (1), Reggio Calabria (0), Palermo (0), Argrigento (2), Aleria (2), Ventimiglia (1), Padova (1)

4 - Pantelleria (0), Eastern Mediterranean Sea (1), Outer Ionian Sea (0), Siracusa (1), Catanissetta (2), Brindisi (1), Benevento (0), Spalato (1), Zara (1), Bastia (0), Pescara (2), Fabriano (2), Urbino (0), Bologna (3), Modena (4), Parma (3), Bergamo (2), Grosseto (2), Arezzo (2), Livorno (3), Prato (3), Como (1), Sion (2), Geneve (1), Annecy (3), Chambery (3), La Spezia (1)

3 - Malta (0), East Gateway (0), Bari (0), Cagliari (0), Sassari (0), Ajaccio (0), Ragusa (1), Pola (1), Udine (0), Trento (0), Domodossola (1), Lucca (1)

2 - Africa (0), L'Aquila (0), Perugia (0), Venezia (0)



It would be interesting to speculate on some of the ratios of the provinces, For instance Modena has 4 provinces surrounding it - each with an SC on them does this make Modena a more or less desireable grab early on? Also Sarzanna has 6 SCs currounding it - with a sea province - should one expect this to be a strategic bottle kneck or a strategic corridor?

Let's talk strategy for the two doomed powers, France and Turkey?
Or would the thorough discussion end up making it MORE difficult to play them?

France, obviously, needs an ally, preferably in Milan, but potentially in Genova. (I'll get to that).
Taking Geneve is an obvious choice, but it leaves you trapped. You could try, afterwards, to squeak out via Briancon or Novara to either Nizza or Como (this is where having friends helps).

OR, you could, at the get-go, just book it to Nizza and Como. This has the added bonus of menacing Savoy's home SC of Torino, and their easy expansion (and frequent Spring move) of Aosta at the same time. This is a move I'm not sure I've seen tried, but it's what I'd do.

Thoughts?

I haven't played France - but the options seem limited from the start.

Is it possible to ally effectively with Saviona? should France become an affective Vassal state to either Milano or Saviona - remembering of course that this variant has been designed for PPSC.

It seems to me that should France vassal itself to Milano it will eventually run out of room to expand - at which point Milano could quite easily take whatever meager gains France has made away from him.

On the other hand working with Saviona seems to offer more opportunities particularly in the assisting in the expansion Eastwards.

I have seen in the first build season France with an army in both Torino and Aosta - but I imagine that this would be reliant of some extremely fancy diplomacy.

@ Rancher - could you share what country you were playing and why Foggia was such an important province for you?

Turkey, the other doomed power, has FAR more options.

They are guaranteed 3 unchallengeable SCs for the first year. Malta, Catania, in the south, and Pola in the north (in venetian territory).

They can attempt (but likely be bounced from) Channel of Sicilia, and from there attempt Pantelleria or Palermo, but that doesn't get any more SCs,

There are two real issues: What to do with the fleet in East Gateway, and what to disband.

The conservative route is to disband your northern fleet, and attempt to press your advantage in Sicily. You should at least fleet-even locally to Naples if you send East Gateway south to Inner Ionian. OR try to bounce Naples in the center for either Taranto / Brindisi, and perhaps score a build.

I can't really think of a scenario that goes much better with a Naples player that has half a brain for tactics.

This is assuming that Turkey is going to battle with Naples regardless - could there be an agreement reached between the two nations that doesn't include conflict?

ive only played on this variant once, but wouldnt naples want to make peace with the turks so he doesnt have a distraction on his southern flank?

@kaner406 -- in games I played as both the Turks and as Papal States Foggia was a critical province for supports and holds and helped me immensely to control it; in each game Naples ended up decimated at my expense

specifically, Foggia is a key to sc's in Bari, Taranto and Brindisi and if you are the Pope it works well with the fortress support in Benevento ... it is also within two moves of sc's in Amalfi, Reggio Calabria, Naples, L'Aquila and Ancona

*bump

what about this strategy for France?
instead of trying to fight Savoia, or trying to create conflicts betwen Savoia and Milano, why not to offer both of them, as a mercenary power, to help them against Genova and Venice respectively, attempting to take Como and Nizza the first year. You might try to convince Milano, that Venice is too strong and the best thing he can do is to try to create a league against Venice as soon as possible...