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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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gman314 (1016 D)
12 Mar 11 UTC
(+27)
Winning
Oli won.
On Imperial Civilization's off-topic thread (link inside), there was a brief stint of Second to Last Person to Post Wins. Now that the thread is closed, Oli won.
10509 replies
Open
David Hood (976 D)
Thu 31 Oct UTC
Oct 2024 edition of Deadline News from the Diplomacy Broadcast Network
October 2024 edition of Deadline just released on DBN, featuring an interview with Asia Pacific Champ Max Roe Banks, an update on the variant event, Tournament Through Time, and headlines from around the world of Diplomacy.
https://youtu.be/CGrkmJYaGng?si=RW-VCu62LoCQh3TM
1 reply
Open
IDoExist (1000 D)
Mon 28 Oct UTC
How do i play with Imperium?
I'm new to VDip so i might be a bit stupid in this platform, But how do i play with the "tribal" variant - Imperium? Its the variant that made me sign up here too, But when trying to create a game i cant find it.
2 replies
Open
butterhead (1272 D)
21 May 12 UTC
(+16)
Advertise your NON-live games here!
In an effort to compromise the pro-ads versus anti-ads for games: Post here for your non-live games to cut down on the number of ads but still advertise games. Post game link, WTA or PPSC, and the bet. Note: this doesn't count for special rules games.
3445 replies
Open
Peppapig (1129 D)
Wed 23 Oct UTC
Another question (lol)
Why English words don't have the same parts though the similar meaning?
like:pig-pork,but in Chinese,we say 猪 and 猪肉
cow-milk,奶牛-牛奶
So remembering the English words is a bit hard.
9 replies
Open
Rozemondbell (1000 D X)
Mon 21 Oct UTC
Mmoexp POE currency: Adjust Notification Settings in Your Profile
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0 replies
Open
Rozemondbell (1000 D X)
Mon 21 Oct UTC
Mmoexp POE currency: Adjust Notification Settings in Your Profile
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0 replies
Open
Iango (1007 D)
Thu 17 Oct UTC
Backstabbr?
Just curious what the general consensus on it is. Seems easier to use, but I've heard the community isn't as good?
6 replies
Open
kaner406 (1967 D Mod (B))
16 Oct 24 UTC
(+2)
vDip help - website differences
A thread to detail differences between webdip and vDip, and the many features vDip has that you might be unaware of.
11 replies
Open
kaner406 (1967 D Mod (B))
08 Sep 18 UTC
(+7)
Variant Development Thread
This thread is made for the express purpose of cutting down of multiple threads that deal with new variants, ideas, concepts etc...
1136 replies
Open
Hoi4 (1000 D)
15 Oct 24 UTC
How to make map variants?
How do you make a map varient that is added to the website
5 replies
Open
Hoi4 (1000 D)
15 Oct 24 UTC
How do you play a game against AI?
How do you play a game against AI?
5 replies
Open
Peppapig (1129 D)
04 Oct 24 UTC
i wanna ask a strange question
do English native speakers always follow the grammar?
or just like"oh i feel this sentence is ok"
Ditto.
And I'm from China too btw.
Caerus (1470 D)
04 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
That's a really fun Question. My roommates spent 5 years in China and taught classes over there and my best friend was an English teacher, so we often talk about a lot about the language the three of us speak.

Based on my experience, the conversations we've had about it, and the surprisingly large number of articles and videos we have read/watched about it, I'd say it is largely a vibes based "this sentence feels right" but it is always astounding to me how many very specific rules are ingrained in vibes based feeling.

One of my favorite examples is, as a Native American English speaker, I will usually naturally order my adjectives in particular order: opinion, size, age, shape, colour, origin, material, purpose. Which means I will say "Big red rubber ball" but not say "plastic hard yellow bat" because that order just *feels* wrong.

But in a way, I think that makes sense. I think Grammar is ideally described as the study of "what generally makes a sentence feel ok to native speakers", though that definition might be a little wishful thinking. Does that make sense? Would the other native English speakers agree?

Hope this helps!
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
04 Oct 24 UTC
"colour"

Found the British English speaker! We fought a whole war to get rid of "u"! (I kid of course!)


I agree with Caerus for the most part on the adjectives example. Although in my experience, the phrase "the big red star-shaped rubber ball" is more grammatically "right" than "the big star-shaped red rubber ball", flipping the shape versus color, but both still "feel" right to me regardless.

It is definitely a thing that native speakers just "feel" in my opinion. In fact, I feel like there's plenty of times that I work with non-native English speakers (who actually have great English skills) where they say phrases that are probably actually grammatically "correct", but just feel a little off. Like it's almost too formal nowadays.

In that regard I am of the opinion that "correct' grammar is certainly a shifting target. Heck, just look 100-200 years ago about how people spoke and wrote and you'll likely see massive shifts in what is considered "correct".

This is certainly an interesting topic to discuss though!
JECE (1534 D)
04 Oct 24 UTC
I believe that you're supposed to separate lists of adjectives that directly modify a noun with commas. Maybe that's why the examples feel off?
drano019 (2710 D Mod)
04 Oct 24 UTC
JECE,

I don't think that's necessarily the case though. A phrase such as "the yellow, old, round, small ball" would still feel "wrong" though compared to "the small, round, old, yellow ball".

What I find interesting is that the list Caerus posted is the "official" list of order (that I can find), but to me, having color before shape sounds more "right" sometimes.
Caerus (1470 D)
04 Oct 24 UTC
(+2)
Ooooh, you caught me. The adjective list was copied and pasted from an British source, and I didn't proofread for the "u", lol.
vlgambini (1174 D)
04 Oct 24 UTC
The adjective ordering is not exactly a rule of grammar. English grammar is more about things like subject-verb agreement, pronoun-antecedent agreement, parallel structure, etc. And there are right and wrong ways to say things. Drano is correct that what is considered "right" changes over time, but those changes are few and gradual. There are well-defined rules. For example:

-- She likes swimming, fishing, and to take long walks.

-- Dedication and hard work is more important than talent.

To answer the OP, most native English speakers in the USA don't know the rules of grammar. That's because it's not really taught in schools here at any level. Even highly educated Americans who write for a living (lawyers, journalists, etc.) make grammatical errors rather frequently. Most use the "oh i feel this sentence is ok" approach.
AleChoel (1301 D)
05 Oct 24 UTC
Isn't this true for most languages? I'm not a native speaker either and now that I think of it... Yeah, I've never seen someone apply actual rulebook grammar to their speech or informal texting. But there are a lot of quirks we just replicate.
vlgambini (1174 D)
05 Oct 24 UTC
It's a good question. I agree, hardly anyone pays attention to their grammar when they speak or send texts. And today a lot of verbal communication is informal like that.
Peppapig (1129 D)
06 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
thanks
vdip is a good space to learn English,lol
Caerus (1470 D)
06 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Interesting. I would definitely consider syntax a subset of grammar, and adverb order a subset of syntax. If not a rule of grammar, where would you put it?
mouse (1868 D)
06 Oct 24 UTC
(+2)
To the original post - we were mostly *taught* by 'oh this feels right' rather than formal grammar, so that's what comes out in general usage.

Like, even something as fundamental as Subject-Verb-Object, that was entirely 'feels' until taking a linguistics class at university.

(also lol, vlgambini casually dropping an Oxford Comma as a "well-defined rule" rather than the mass of contention that it truly is)
fourofswords (885 D)
07 Oct 24 UTC
I am of the impression that most native native English speakers absolutely do not follow the proper grammar by any means. But, I am from an area in which I am correct, Oklahoma, USA. All my life I wish I were around people who so speak proper English grammar. My mother was from England, and my dad was from here. Many on his side of the family were school teachers. My English grandmother lived with us. When I went to first grade, I had a hard time understanding the other students, honestly. It was a shock. I got used to it, and since I live in a University town which keeps growing, we have many accents now. Oklahoma, all in all, is a nice place to live. The people here are very friendly.
vlgambini (1174 D)
07 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Caerus, I stand corrected on adjective ordering. Seems it's universally described as a rule of grammar. I learned something new today. For a "rule" it's awfully complicated, isn't it? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/adjectives-order

Mouse, lol on the Oxford comma. I'm not a partisan there, but I think it tends to make the meaning more clear.
BlueDog4Peace (1327 D)
07 Oct 24 UTC
I love this thread. I'd say that for English native speakers, the language is very much about the feel more than about the rules. That's partly because of old history - Germanic old English added a ton of French after 1066 and radically simplified its grammar, and ever since has added new words and expressions and ways of speaking. Inventiveness and evolution are allowed in vocabulary, spelling, commas, hyphens, capitalization, and more. If you are communicating effectively, your English is good, and extra credit if you use words and grammar that are new and sound cool.
AleChoel (1301 D)
07 Oct 24 UTC
My native language is spanish, and people also make small mistakes in grammar (slight mistakes in verb tenses and such)
A side effect of not being a native speaker of english is that I don't get mad at english spellings. When you see "laugh" and learn it's pronounced lɑːf, you just kinda give up on trying to make sense of words.
JECE (1534 D)
08 Oct 24 UTC
"When you see 'laugh' and learn it's pronounced lɑːf, you just kinda give up on trying to make sense of words."

Too funny, ha ha!

I'd love to do a Spanish-language game at some point. I'm a native speaker of both languages, but don't find a lot of Spanish speakers in the on-line Diplomacy community. Well, Diplomacy en Español used to exist, but webdiplo.com has since disappeared.
ubercacher16 (1883 D)
08 Oct 24 UTC
Oxford comma is absolutely a rule Mr. Mouse.
Mr. Finkelmuiyer (1317 D)
09 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
From Chapter 1 of "The Elements of Style," by Strunk and White:

"2. In a series of three of more terms with a single conjunction, use a comma after each term except the last."

I will die on the hill of the necessity of the oxford comma.
Peppapig (1129 D)
09 Oct 24 UTC
very funny lol
JECE (1534 D)
09 Oct 24 UTC
The Oxford comma is an uncontested grammar error in other languages like Spanish. Its defenders in English are more outnumbered than they seem, heh heh heh.
G-Man (2460 D)
09 Oct 24 UTC
(+2)
As a technical writer, I find the Oxford comma is a must for clarity in multiple instances and fields. As a creative writer, feel free to go without when streamlining and brevity are important, but ask yourself if omission of any missing comma presents any confusion for the reader.
JECE (1534 D)
10 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
The Oxford comma can also introduce ambiguity and confusion for the reader. It's easy to find examples of that on-line.
ubercacher16 (1883 D)
10 Oct 24 UTC
Maybe if you're bad at writing. If your sentence is unclear because you aren't separating your comma lists properly you need to rewrite your sentence. A comma list should always have a comma between every congruent item in the list. If you want to put incongruent items among your congruent items use a different sentence structure.
JECE (1534 D)
10 Oct 24 UTC
That's one potential source of ambiguity that Oxford commas introduce. But what about parentheticals?

'Charles, the king, and his favorite discussed the relative merits of summoning ambassador Charles for an audience or killing the foreigner in his sleep.'
AleChoel (1301 D)
10 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
This is so petty lol
ubercacher16 (1883 D)
11 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Why not say "King Charles"? In my opinion all of this can be fixed with better constructed sentences.
JECE (1534 D)
11 Oct 24 UTC
Does this illustrate it better?

'Charles, the joker, and his king discussed the relative merits of summoning ambassador Charles for an audience or killing the foreigner in his sleep.'

Written English should be able to record spoken English exactly as it was uttered. Suggesting that you need to be "bad at writing" to not find merit in the Oxford comma is not just awfully accusatory, but also misses the point of writing.

AleChoel: Yes.
DungDefender (1419 D)
11 Oct 24 UTC
I'm a little confused about the Oxford Comma. As an American, I don't see that a sentence becomes clearer in any way when it is omitted. Is this a thing in Britain?
DungDefender (1419 D)
11 Oct 24 UTC
And I've heard that in America, we don't bother to learn the "proper" grammar because of our history of being a big melting pot of cultures. American English is the result of tons of immigrants learning the language just well enough to communicate with others, so American English was bound to lose many of its subtleties.
AleChoel (1301 D)
11 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Everything boils down to your phrasing, really. If using the oxford comma causes ambiguity in a passage, it's better to rephrase it or just don't put the comma there. And if not using the oxford comma causes ambiguity... you get the point.
mouse (1868 D)
13 Oct 24 UTC
Dung Defender - JECE just provided several examples where the existence of an oxford comma creates ambiguity. The fact that some people use an extraneous comma before the "and" in a list, means that usage of a parenthetical may be confused with usage of an oxford comma, creating ambiguity in the meaning of the phrase.

In all cases, whether you subscribe to intrusive and unnecessary commas or not, potential ambiguity should be resolved by rewording.
vlgambini (1174 D)
14 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Actually, mouse, JECE provided one example, and not a very convincing one. The same ambiguity can arise without an Oxford comma:

'Charles, the joker, William and their king discussed the relative merits of summoning ambassador Charles for an audience or killing the foreigner in his sleep.'

The solution in either example is not to rail against (or cheer in favor of) the Oxford comma, but to rewrite the sentence to remove the ambiguity:

'Charles, the joker, discussed with William and their king the relative merits of summoning ambassador Charles for an audience or killing the foreigner in his sleep.'
JECE (1534 D)
14 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
"The same ambiguity can arise without an Oxford comma"

I guess, but that example sounds awfully confusing in spoken English too. It's hard to record what wasn't clear in the first place.
JECE (1534 D)
14 Oct 24 UTC
(+2)
"The solution in either example is not to rail against (or cheer in favor of) the Oxford comma"

But to be honest, I agree with you here. It's more the visceral and self-assuredness of the Oxford comma proponents that I reacted to. The important thing is to (ideally) be consistent with whichever one you go with, although AleChoel points out that perhaps breaking your own rule on occasion also has its merits.
halfasleep (1805 D)
14 Oct 24 UTC
Ah yes, the Oxford Comma. Exactly what I expect to talk about on Vdiplomacy.
ubercacher16 (1883 D)
14 Oct 24 UTC
"The solution in either example is not to rail against (or cheer in favor of) the Oxford comma"

Very fair. I'll admit I was being overly in favor for the comedic effect. My intention was not to imply that finding fault with an Oxford comma makes you bad at writing but rather that ambiguity in the example JECE gave could be fixed by changing the sentence structure.
Hoi4 (1000 D)
15 Oct 24 UTC
Half the native English speakers are just to lazy, like me????


38 replies
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bbg (969 D)
08 Oct 24 UTC
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Open
bbg (969 D)
08 Oct 24 UTC
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Open
schizo staccato (1106 D)
05 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
Looking for a replacement in a rule variant game on discord
(but the game is played in French)
(but the variant is great)

This is the third edition of the "Espionage Dip" variant - not the old play-by-mail version with spying units, the newer discord version with spying players.
4 replies
Open
kitczing (958 D)
05 Oct 24 UTC
In person variant moves adjudicator?
My question is, is there a way to use the website or any computer program to input orders for a speedier turn resolution?
Is it 'legal' to make 10 accounts to input the orders or is there a way to solo moderate a game to help with this process?
3 replies
Open
David Hood (976 D)
01 Oct 24 UTC
(+1)
September 2024 Deadline News is out!
September edition of Deadline News just released on DBN - interview with frequent tournament winner Katie Gray, discussion about the Sydney Diplomacy Club with Shane Armstrong, and headlines from around the world of Diplomacy.
https://youtu.be/raUq3DVqdwo?si=IlutwKijEKmdWBX0
1 reply
Open
sgt_destruction (1000 D)
26 Sep 24 UTC
(+1)
Can I create a sandbox?
Just got an account looking for where to create a sandbox.
2 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
23 Sep 24 UTC
Looking for a Replacement for Europa 4 position
Hi, I wanna sub out of this game (https://vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=60053). I'm just in too many Dip games rn and need to focus on life stuff.

The position is quite good: Ottomans, high-table, start of Year 5 so still pretty early.
1 reply
Open
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