It gets resolved at the end of the diplomacy phase.

I'd like you to consider moving it to the build phase, maybe starting the next round, for the reasons I outlined. It's a bit silly for countries to be borrowing money for units they don't know if they'll be able build.

Does the stock market tell you if it's gonna crash/make you lose money? No, that would be silly if it did.

(hoping people get what I mean)

^^^yeah! Basically its about risk and foresight. Sometimes the governments are going to guess wrong and take out to much, sometimes not enough. It puts a new layer of strategy into the issuing of bonds.

I did consider having it progress in the spring. Where governments would spend money they don't have (like in real life), and hope they don't default because creditors buy their bonds to give the governments money they have already spent.

However I don't want it to progress in the builds, thats to unrisky...

Nice to see someone gets it.... (though it was just the person who understood it anyways because it was his vision before mine)

I'm torn, on principle i always like to disagree with the Don, but I can see some merit.

However ingame, i can make no deals in autumn if i have no money. If i have to wait for the build phase there is far less to talk about. If i was a wealthy country trying to buy bonds and prop up a friend and ally then i'd much prefer to do so during autumn...

"I'm torn, on principle i always like to disagree with the Don, but I can see some merit."
Based on past debates on webdip, I thought your principle was the disagree with me, lol

I wish that there was a way for the OP to edit the title/description of the thread and put the game ID up there so it wouldn't get buried anymore.

gameID=8498

I have it bookmarked, but yeah, I agree

"I have it bookmarked, but yeah, I agree "

Same lol.

I'd prefer a seperate thread for deal and declarations, and have this for rules, queries and starting a second game when the time comes (or the players can be found)

If we're talking realism here, you should remember that countries could pay orders "on credit", IE they didn't need to have cash in hand to pay their bills. The mechanism was always: Find how much money we need -> pay with credit -> float bonds -> pay bills. The type of gameplay here doesn't really represent "real world" risk.

As for risk, if the bond portion was during the build portion, there would still be plenty of risk. Don't forget, there's the risk that they won't be able to raise the bonds they need. For instance, what if they leave bond raising to the build phase, and suddenly they get stabbed? How much money are they going to be able to raise on the market then?

For me risk is a great part of gameplay, but it has to be the right kind of risk. For instance, Diplomacy, with it's simultaneous turns, has the right type of risk. You have to risk whether or not you can trust your fellow players. The emphasis is on the interpersonal relations.

With the bonds being sold in autumn, the risk switches from interpersonal (IE the relations between players and creditors) to their own skill risk. The focus switches from external factors(can I get creditors to lend to me) to internal factors (can I predict how much money I need). Which changes the tone of the game to be more like Bridge, where the skill isn't about winning, but predicting how well you'll win.

I don't think players should need to cultivate that kind of foresight, it's puts too much ingame success on foresight, which, in a chaotic game like Diplomacy seems like a recipe for frustration.

Anyway, give it a few turns, I think you guys will see what I mean.

I don't think we should change the rules during a game either. But if there were no obiections then i would likely accept such a proposal...

That said 'paying on credit' is like sending an IOU, 'realistically' i can say i owe a person whenever i want, but i can always default on that obligation.

well the game has hardly started, and no bonds have officially been paid yet, not for another 20 minutes.

So I guess we could still change the rules and it wouldn't be mid game.

I have a rule clarification question. Whats the dealine for borrowing from an ally? It would seem that it should be the end of build phase as the ehole idea of borrowijg is that your bonds didnt sell as you thought they would.

private deals can be made at any time, so yes there is no deadline.

Net Income for each government (Taxes-Unit Upkeep) for 1901:
Austria: 80,000 (120-40)
England: 70,000 (90-20)
France: 75,000 (135-60)
Germany: 60,000 (120-60)
Italy: 85,000 (105-20)
Russia: 90,000 (150-60)
Turkey: 65,000 (105-40)

Private Deals:
Adamma: 30k to Russia, 20k to Germany
Russia: 30k to England, 10k to Turkey
DonQuigLeone: 20k to Russia

As agreed on by the rule change, bonds aren't being processed until after the build phase.

Cash on Hand:
Governments:
Austria: 80,000
England: 100,000
France: 75,000
Germany: 80,000
Italy: 85,000
Russia: 100,000
Turkey: 75,000

Creditors:
Butterhead: 200,000
Qwit: 200,000
Shep315: 200,000
DonQuigleone: 180,000
KingKongKill: 200,000
adammaa: 150,000

Wait, what agreed upon rules change? Does that mean the govt can order units, but not be sure the creditors will buy enough bonds?

No wait, i enter my build orders to the server and then after the build is revealed i find out how many units i can afford, then go back in time and set my builds again...

Ok, the way that woupd work is half a phase delay. So fall moves reveal, then an auction phase, then a build phase. (each phase being the normal phase length) this works out fine for all concerns, i think

Jeez. That includes private bonds when they are processed in the year?

So does that mean after the build, it will be a new year.... So.... It's 1901... Bonds are sorted out instead in 1902 and we get no interest in for making it to 1902?

But if they are private bonds, they can be bought/sorted before 1901 ends so we get interest on those? But not on the bonds we placed bets for until 1903 for first interest?

i assume interest on all bonds is paid at the same time (to simplify the calculation, which fasces is doing by hand - or in excel) I also presume they are first paid in the 1902 tax/upkeep/interest phase. (at the end of fall 1902)

That is my guess at least.

Sounds like a good spot.

and the first year's upkeep (for newly raised armies) is included in the cost to raise the unit...

So 60k maitence (except for Russia) plus how many units your raising equals your total cost of the first year?

I second the idea of having the cash worked out *during* the build phase(around the middle), rather then at the end of it.

As for interest, I don't mind not receiving it until next year.

1.) upkeep/taxation (end of fall)
2.) Bond Auction. (1K per bond sold, half-way through adjudication *¿double phase length?*)
3.) Units raised. (75K per unit raised, adjudication phase)

in 1902 interest is paid at 1. (along with upkeep and taxation)

in 1910 bonds are repaid at 2. (along with newly raised bonds which can be used to pay off old bonds...)

My only question is about private deals. I risked 30K (privately raised from Adammaa on the purchase of Norway from england)

I think england should have found out if he actually got paid after the fall adjudication, while i should have had to tell fasces BEFORE the adjudication - so he enters his orders and I tell fasces before adjudication, then we both find out whether we've been stabbed... just like diplomacy usually works.

I don't think we should be allowed to make conditional deals. (where, for example I tell fasces 'I will pay england IF he supports me to norway' and fasces enforces this to guarentee trust between the players... as DonQuigley stated, it's about the right kind of risk, and this is the kind which we already find in diplomacy, take that away and we're playing a very different game)

I think we should have left it as it was, after Autumn before builds, but if everyone agrees to the new way, that's fine.

Also, is the upkeep charged for this year, or last year?

and one more clarification. I have a question about paying interest vs paying upkeep.

I would suggest that the govts get to decide how to spend their taxation.

If they can afford their upkeep and interest are they forced to pay for both, or only for upkeep? If they can't afford both can they pay the upkeep and ignore the interest?

In any case investors should know during the bond auction whether a country defaulted on their interest payments. (private deals could be made to guarantee you have enough cash on hand to pay your interest... but that kind of exceptional lending is extra riskey for investors...)