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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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zultar (1241 D)
08 Jul 13 UTC
Best Diplomacy Website
Hey guys, I was wondering what your most preferred Diplomacy website?
I am playing in playdiplomacyonline website as well but honestly I prefer this one more since it is more tactical and does not punish you for making wrong clicks.. What do you guys think?
8 replies
Open
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
25 May 13 UTC
(+2)
New feature, very early development-stage....
Interactive map.
You can use you mouse to make give orders to your armies.
43 replies
Open
pyrhos (1268 D)
06 Jul 13 UTC
Germany 1648
We have a Germany 1648 starting in 16h somebody please join we need one more player
1 reply
Open
Anon (?? D)
06 Jul 13 UTC
WW4 gunboat starting in 24 hours - players needed
Please consider joining gameID=14993. We've got half the players, just need some more.
2 replies
Open
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
28 Jun 13 UTC
variant test time
http://lab.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=100
3 replies
Open
NigelFarage (1238 D)
03 Jul 13 UTC
Classic-Total Domination
I've created a classic-build anywhere map, with an EOG of 34 SCs (i.e., all of the SCs in the game). To play, you have to agree to certain rules (in comments) beforehand. Password is in comments.

Game link: gameID=15041
6 replies
Open
Lukas Podolski (1234 D)
02 Jul 13 UTC
Replacement needed
gameID=14661 as Turkey
not a very good position, but is not completely dead
1 reply
Open
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
09 Jan 13 UTC
(+3)
Input of an alternate scoring system needed...
As the Dpoints are not an ideal way to represent a players game-strenght I'm thinking about implementing an alternate rating system (in addition to the traditional Dpoints)
Any math experts here?
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Retillion (2304 D (B))
14 Feb 13 UTC
And by the way, what happens in a team game ?

Should a player lose points because he has drawn with his team partner which he mustn't attack because of the special game rules ?
Decima Legio (1987 D)
14 Feb 13 UTC
people generally, of course
Retillion (2304 D (B))
14 Feb 13 UTC
OK, thanks :)
Decima Legio (1987 D)
14 Feb 13 UTC
A team game is an exception.
Let's detect a fair and usable algorithm for standard games first.

THEN, but only then, let's discuss how to handle exceptions.
1st on the list how to handle a CD event, which is more frequent than any kind of special rule game.
Leif_Syverson (1725 D Mod)
14 Feb 13 UTC
SRG games should be excepted from the rankings all together.. maybe we need a flag for SRG games or other games that players wish to have excepted from the rankings.. Basically allow either ranked or unranked games.
Leif_Syverson (1725 D Mod)
14 Feb 13 UTC
Make this an option at game creation that is..
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
14 Feb 13 UTC
I'm not in favor of an option at game creation.
It might lead to many misuse. Also you can't change old games.
Ideally it shouldn't matter much, because if you loose a few points you should catch up really fast.
Devonian (1887 D)
14 Feb 13 UTC
Decima,

"If you are rated 1300 and play a duel against an opponent rated 1298, your expected result is 0.503 while his expected result is 0.497. A draw gives both a real result of 0.5, so your net score would be -0.003 and his net score +0.003. Now I don’t remember which was the multiplicative coefficient used in front of ratings change calculations for duels (10?). Even if it were 50 you and him would result in a zero change due to numerical rounding."

- If this is true, then I don't have a concern... from a mathematical standpoint. (I still have a concern that it might have the unintended consequence I described earlier.)


"If you’ve lost 3skill points against bozo… I suppose this has happened due to an old game when you or him were still not properly rated ( that is bozo was still underrated or you were overrated )."

- When the HoF list was created, it was the second to the last game I played. So there was not a big underrated/overrated situation.
pjman (661 D)
14 Feb 13 UTC
Hello I'm sorry for just joining, but are you guys talking about giving everyone a rating? On there skill?
Oli (977 D Mod (P))
14 Feb 13 UTC
Maybe instead of pairing everyone in a draw 0.5:0.5 we could just stop to rate the drawers against each other. Like in chess a draw is not very frequent but here it's the usual outcome. And because not only 2 people fight each other and agree to a draw it's much more complex. Sometimes you need to include someone in a draw that has a much weaker RR, just because he is on the other side of the board and protected by other players.
Retillion (2304 D (B))
14 Feb 13 UTC
@ Oli, just for your information, in chess (in slow games of course, not in blitz games), the higher the players' level is, the more usual it is to have a drawn game : a draw result is more frequent than a won/lost result.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
15 Feb 13 UTC
Oli,
the problem is IMO:

In a given game, the Expected Result of user “A” should be depending on
- Rating of “A”
- Rating of the other users in game (classic for fixing ideas, B,C,D,E,F,G)

The Expected Result should not be depending on the game outcome. I mean, once the joining list is filled, the “minus” part of my net score should be already defined, while the “plus” part of it will be defined at the game end.

Let me explain where the problem arises, referring to a classic WTA solo:
“ Loss/Loss: n/a, K=0 (no adjustment between these pairs) ”
On a winner’s point of view the formulation is indeed complete: the adjustment takes into account all the 6 opponents pairing expected results.

On a loser’s point of view the formulation takes into account ONLY the winner’s pairing expected result. That is, even if a defeat leads in any case to a point loss, I will lose fewer point IF the winner is the greater player.
Using the example, if I am A, rated 1000 and G is the winner.
G is rated 600, I lose 8.5 D
G is rated 1000, I lose 4.7 D
G is rated 1400, I lose 0.8 D

We have to avoid that a player finds more convenient an outcome because the user involved is C instead of D.
My driving force must be solely my own result, a solo or a small size draw, regardless of whom is involved for points reasons.

Moreover, the algorithm does not to take into account the “power” of B,C,D,E,F in calculating the adjustment of user A:
On the same example of above, I will lose the same amounts of points regardless B,C,D,E,F being a bunch of beginners or a bunch of Diplomats.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
15 Feb 13 UTC
On a higher perspective for the classic game:

we collect 7X6=42 pairings results and get rid of 6X5=30 of them. The major part of information is lost. The greater size the game, the greater the % of information lost.

I find difficulties in understanding this partial matchup approach: every game we collect n*(n-1) pairings data and then, depending on the outcome type, we get rid of a (great) part of them.
yebellz (0 D)
15 Feb 13 UTC
@Decima, you bring up a number of interesting concerns. Several of them seem to be quite interrelated and some may stem from misconceptions about the proposed rating system, so I'll try to explain the philosophy of the rating system a bit more first before attempting to address these concerns.

The high-level idea of the rating system, and other Elo-like systems, is to make adjustments to players' ratings based on whether they have met, exceeded, or fell short of their expected performance, which is somehow estimated based on their prior ratings. The Elo system does a good job of this for two-player games, since it's straightforward to say that a higher ranked player should perform better than a lower ranked player and the only question is to come up with a model that quantifies the relation between prior rating differential and expected performance. In particular, the Elo system uses an exponential model for characterizing expected performance, which is a reasonable approximation with some empirical evidence of its validity. Overall, this system tends to work well for these two player games, since it will make smaller adjustments when the strongly expected occurs (a much higher ranked players wins) while making larger and opposite adjustments when the less expected occurs (a much weaker player wins). This approach tends to result in a self-correcting behavior that adaptively converges the ratings toward some true underlying measure of relative skill.

Extending the concept of the Elo-rating system to games involving more than two players is tricky, since the multiplayer dynamic raises questions about how one should compute the expected performance, as it is difficult to develop a model that can estimate the expected performances given multiple players of differing skills. For example, suppose you have seven players and their *true skill* is given by the relative ratings 1400, 1200, 1140, 1250, 1460, 1050, and 1320. Is the first player under-performing if he takes a 3-way draw? Should who he drew with/against matter? Toward resolving the difficulty of answering these questions, Oli proposed a rather clever heuristic for making adjustments in these multiplayer games. Instead of attempting to adjust each player's rating based on some difficult to compute expected performance against the rest of group, the proposed system breaks it down into a series of pairwise adjustments.

Thus, the philosophy is simplified: each pair is adjusted based on the difference between their relative actual performance and their relative pairwise expected performance. Calculating the relative pairwise expected performance is more straightforward, since one can follow the philosophy that the better ranked player is expected to perform better and we can apply the exponential model to quantify this. Calculating the relative actual performance is a matter of a looking at if one player has done better that the other in the game. When comparing a winner versus a loser, or a drawer versus a loser, it's reasonable to say that the winner/drawer convincingly performed better than the loser. When considering a pair that has both drawn, one could argue that they have both performed equally well. However, for such pairs, the adjustment would have an equalizing effect, bringing the two players' ratings closer together (effectively penalizing the higher ranked player for sharing in a draw with a lower ranked player). This Draw/Draw equalizing effect could even cause players to sometimes lose rating while drawing. Also, I believe that a draw/draw comparison is somewhat less convincing at indicating that both played equally well, than a draw/loss comparison would indicate that the drawer had played better than the loser. Hence, due to both of these effects, I proposed that we introduce a factor (of around 0.2) that lessens the relative impact of the draw/draw adjustments versus draw/loss adjustments, making it less likely for a player to lose rating in a draw, and observing that a draw/draw may be less indicative of relative skill than a draw/loss comparison.

The final type of comparison for WTA games is loss/loss, which I believe has almost no indication of the relative skill between two players. Two players of vastly different skill can both lose in the same game for various reasons, but it does not indicate that they have performed equally well. For example, one player may have just played bad enough to lose, while another may have spectacularly failed possibly even by throwing the solo. Further, if one were to make loss/loss pair adjustments on the premise that the two players performed equally well, this would illogically penalize stronger players for losing alongside weaker players. In fact, making loss/loss adjustments could even lead to losing players with weaker prior rating actually gaining rating for losing.

Some have proposed that perhaps some information could be garnered out of loss/loss comparisons by considering other factors, such as how long a player lasted in a game and whether they survived to the end. I think that considering simple measures to differentiate between different types of loss, such as looking number of years before defeat or differentiating survivors, are fundamentally flawed. Consider comparing a player that was defeated early on simply because he was ganged up on, another player that survived longer by ganging up on the first but inadvertently threw the game out of balance setting a up solo opportunity for someone else while eventually being defeated, and a third player that survived to the end by disregarding the WTA objective of the game and instead simply played for a (meaningless) strong second while giving up an easy solo. A naive system that simply considers survives to be better than defeats, might actually encourage players to go for the strong second if they are lower ranked and can earn rating over the defeated group despite giving up a solo. To accurately compare different types of loss (survives and defeats), an ideal rating system could not simply rely on length of survival in determining relative performance of losers. In general this would be a very difficult and subjective problem that would have to look into the specific game dynamics and essentially try to assign blame for the solo. This would not be a straightforward task and perhaps beyond the realm of a practical, automated rating system.

I'll address your specific concerns one by one:

1) Discarding some pairwise adjustments
> Quote: "we collect 7X6=42 pairings results and get rid of 6X5=30 of them. The major part of information is lost. The greater size the game, the greater the % of information lost.
I find difficulties in understanding this partial matchup approach: every game we collect n*(n-1) pairings data and then, depending on the outcome type, we get rid of a (great) part of them."
> Response: Some pairwise adjustments are discard or deemphasized since they contain weaker or misleading information. The loss/loss adjustment (explained above) is an example of this. Keeping loss/loss adjustments could even lead to very strange results, such as weaker ranked losers gaining rating points simply for losing alongside good players, while punishing those better players needlessly.

2) Expected result should depended on all players
> Quote: "In a given game, the Expected Result of user “A” should be depending on
- Rating of “A”
- Rating of the other users in game (classic for fixing ideas, B,C,D,E,F,G)"
> Response: By making pairwise adjustments, the implicit overall expected result does depend on all other players in some cases. For example, as you noted, the winner is adjusted with respect to each other player. From the perspective of a loser, certain pairwise adjustments are dropped (as explained above) due to the difficulty of quantifying loss/loss comparisons. This point also seems related to issue 5 below, which I discuss further.

3) Expected result should not depend on the game outcome
> Quote: "The Expected Result should not be depending on the game outcome. I mean, once the joining list is filled, the “minus” part of my net score should be already defined, while the “plus” part of it will be defined at the game end."
> Response: The overall expected result for a player is not directly calculated, but rather arises implicitly from the pairwise adjustment heuristic. The adjustments do however depend on the specifics of the game outcome. For example, a 3-way draw between 3 strong players over 4 weaker players, results in little gain/loss for that game, since that result is not very surprising. Also, there is a difference between a weak player taking a 3-way draw with two strong players against 4 weak players, versus a situation where that weak player took a 3-way draw with two other weak players against two strong players and two other weak players. From the perspective of that weak player, it's a 3-way draw either way, but having defeated strong players versus going along with them should make a difference.

4) Possibility of abusing the system
> Quote: "We have to avoid that a player finds more convenient an outcome because the user involved is C instead of D.
My driving force must be solely my own result, a solo or a small size draw, regardless of whom is involved for points reasons."
> Response: In general, with games that are played non-anonymously, with some sort of rating system in the mix, players can abuse the system to bring stronger players down while hoping to bring themselves up. I think this is more of an argument that games should generally be anonymous to avoid ratings meta-gaming. Not taking into account who you win/lose against, or who you draw with or against, would create inaccuracies in the ratings.

5) Consideration of the strength of the field in a loss
> Quote: "Moreover, the algorithm does not to take into account the “power” of B,C,D,E,F in calculating the adjustment of user A:
On the same example of above, I will lose the same amounts of points regardless B,C,D,E,F being a bunch of beginners or a bunch of Diplomats."
> Response: Taking into the account of the skill of the other losers when calculating the adjustment of a players loss would seem to presuppose that a loss could be blamed on the general weakness of the field, suggesting that the solo should be discounted since he had a weaker field to manipulate. From the perspective of the winner, the solo is already discounted through the pairwise adjustments with the weaker players. From the perspective of a strongly rated loser, that feels cheated by having played with weaker fellow losers that he blames for giving up a solo, I would have to argue that he had just as much opportunity to take advantage of that weaker field but failed to do so.
In a different vein, I do think that a feature that should be added at some point is to adjust the impact of adjustments based on the presence of provisionally rated players (players that have not played many games and hence have an inaccurate rating).
Decima Legio (1987 D)
15 Feb 13 UTC
Pardon,
I'll be abroad for the next 4 days, I don't know if I'll be able to reply properly due to the lack of a PC&keyboard
yebellz (0 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
PPSC scoring for games is weird...

The scoring system would seem to suggest that a 18 SC win in 34-SC classic with one survivor holding 16 SCs is not very different from a two-way draw, with each player holding 17 SCs. However, this perhaps should not be the case:
1) The existence of multiple 17 SC stalemate positions makes winning difficult against determined opposition.
2) The relative psychological importance of winning a game rather than settling for a draw.

Further, as others have already noted, simply quantifying relative performance in PPSC by SC difference would lead to strange ratings system performance where a tight win would be too similar to a draw, causing potential (albeit unlikely) ratings loss.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
(+2)
Back again.

Yebellz,

I was trying to explain this important concept:
the process of decision making during the game has always been and (supposedly) will always have to be dictated SOLELY by tactic-diplomatic reasons.
I have never killed user B instead of user C because of points convenience. I’ve done it for tactics and alliance reasons. Once the game is started, the presence of B instead of C in the final outcome must not influence my net result, in any way. Even more so that we’re keeping the D-points system working in parallel, we’ll have to keep the two systems points awards the most coherently as we can. The D-points system focuses on MY result, not MY RESULT VS SOMEONE ELSE’s. The performance of my opponents has never been a concern of mine under the D-points system.

Translating this into a concrete situation, I have never received a message like this from any dying country:
“Hey Decima, looks like you’re the most skilled player in this game, my position is screwed anyway, so I’d rather throw the game to you than to the mediocre Mr.Brown, since this action would eventually soften my skill-points loss”

And I would hate to see future games influenced by those dynamics.

If we change the coefficient (whatever it is 1, a fraction or zero) in front of the type-type pairwise pairings because of each pairing nature… de facto we’re affecting the expected results depending on the outcome, leading to the above mentioned, absolutely unwanted side effects.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
(+2)
I’m not a supporter of the 1vs1 pairwise algorithm, Oli is aware of that.

I recognise the value of the algorithm, it’s indeed a clever idea, it complies with some fundamentals like the zero sum property and the Elo-system “philosophy”… but personally I have kind an allergy to the concept of “relative result”, both Expected and Real.

Anyway, if we’re going to proceed with this type of algorithm, I can live with it, but I would certainly protest against any revision that will favour metagaming occurrence/temptations.
Retillion (2304 D (B))
20 Feb 13 UTC
@ Decima Legio : +1
G-Man (2516 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
Great point DL, and i tend to agree. Players should be playing to 1) win, and 2) draw. When rankings/ratings/survives effect those principles, then something is wrong with the system.
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
Decima, while I agree with what you're suggesting about avoiding a system that favors metagaming temptations, I think that it's an uphill climb to achieve that. As another poster on a threat related to symbols representing points/rankings mentioned all of this boils doil to a big contest of people measuring parts specific parts of their anatomy. Playing to win>draw>survive is a great concept. It's just not reality.

In my very first game with a poster in this thread, he informed me that he had checked out all my stats from previous games, and gone on to average out points amassed per game, and decalred me too dangerous to trust..... All of this before a single word of diplomacy on the present game was exchanged. I think it's pretty clear that player targeting is going on already, and will skyrocket once a new system is put in place. And its rather sad that players play the game to chip down those above the tables rather than play each game on it's on merits. But any further establishment of a ranking system is going to result in more of the "Kill Bozo!" effect amongst some players who are too impatient to climb up the charts the old fashioned way (earning it).

So in effect I'm saying let's not rush to blame the system. The systtem itself is not necessarily responsible. The responsibility is amongst all of us to play each game honorably, and let their body of work represent itself. Unfortunately honor is not something that you can represent with points, tables, and statistics. It's got to be embraced by the community and stressed throughout the gaming experience.

So when you hear someone screaming "Kill Bozo!" with the only reason being that he's the VDip points leader, speak up, speak out. I'm not saying let's all give Bozo a free ride, but no player deserves to be targeted in unique games because of their resume of past success.
G-Man (2516 D)
20 Feb 13 UTC
This is why I play anonymously most of the time, though recently I've thrown into a couple of non-anonymous contests. Also, if I'm ever short on players for (mostly) private games, I go the Dip points list and start inviting players from the top down. Everyone should consider that, if you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. And taking on the best players in an anonymous contests gives you the chance to do that without anyone being able to target anyone.
cypeg (2619 D)
21 Feb 13 UTC
It seems that private invites are the only way to form a decent game. and with the new system it may even be better. Even in anonymous games you see suspicious play. And I agree with Ruffhaus that some players are targeted by some. Stats aside, I ve seen a player targeting me in three games wihtout exchanging a word of communication, only because in the first game I played with him I told him that his battleplan will doom us all (and three months later it did).
Decima Legio (1987 D)
21 Feb 13 UTC
@ Retillion
Thanks.

@ G-Man
Thank you too, even I prefer anon games for the same reasons, but since non-anon games exist, and indeed are popular, it is our duty not to let the algorithm influence the game dynamics. The skill system must not be intrusive with respect to the way the games have always been played.
I think we can all agree to the last statement.

@ Ruffhaus
I’m not on this thread to blame the system; I’m trying to make it better.
By now, I just want to be sure that, ***given my set of opponents***, the algorithm’s answer to the previous question:
“Should who I win against or draw together/against or lose together/against matter?”
is “No, damn it, it does not matter!”

This said, I am confident that the uphill climb can be done.
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
21 Feb 13 UTC
The very existence of a site wide performance based points rating system is going to continue influecnce the decisions taken by players as to target/partner. This is already going on with the VDiplomacy Points system of rankings, and it will increase with any new and more performance related system of rankings.

It seems you're asking for then is a sytem that ignores the strength of the opposition, which would have to be abandoned to satisfy your request. Sadly you cannot apply mathmatics to ethics. And as much as I have contempt for crossgamers and metagamers, I'd much rather cope with that then see someone racking up points agaisnt lesser opposition, never engaging in games with top players, and parading around like a peacock.

What you are advocating is of course the proper way to play the game, but this can only be done with ethical behavior throughout the community. This can only be accomplish by taking the personal decision to play ethically, and to lead by example, hoping that others follow it. I admire your confidence, but do not see evidence that this can be accomplished absent some real changes. The present system of dealing with crossgaming players players is to sweep it under the carpet, discourage all discussion of it, and pretend that it's not going on.

Decima Legio (1987 D)
21 Feb 13 UTC
I'm not sure I got what you mean with "play ethically".
Could you please explain, possibly in a brief manner?
RUFFHAUS 8 (2490 D)
22 Feb 13 UTC
It is not a dig at you by any means. So if anything was implied/inferred to reference you, that was not the intent. There are however players here who openly tout the fact that they target players further up the points standings for the sole purpose of metagaming the VDiplomacy points table. There are also players who wage grudges across multiple games. I think that these behaviors are unethical. It's healthy to have competitions and rivalries, and even some open smack talk about who's who and whatnot, but to actually play the individual games with a mindset of targeting players for reasons outside of that specific game (or multi-game tournament) is unethical, and contrary to the spirit of Diplomacy.
yebellz (0 D)
22 Feb 13 UTC
@Decima

1) Some level of ratings meta-gaming would inherently exist with any ratings system.

As Ruffhaus pointed out, even the points system is susceptible to such meta-gaming. Examples would be someone targeting a player that has more points in order to bring that guy down closer, or targeting a rising rival in order to keep that guy from challenging his position in the points ranking.

You might point out that with the points system, your net change in points from a game is determined only by your result and does not depend on the relative results of other players. However, in the bigger picture of the points system, what others gain or lose from a game does affect your overall ranking relative to them. Thus, a player concerned about rising in the point ranks might say:
"Hey Decima, looks like you’re the highest point-ranked player in this game, my position is screwed anyway, so I’d rather throw the game to you than the lower ranked Mr.Brown, since I have a more realistic chance of being competitive with him in terms of points ranking anyways."

2) Ratings meta-gaming is unethical and unfair behavior, and shouldn't be allowed anyways.

Just as it would be unfair to target or favor a player simply due to his points standings, it would be unfair to target or favor a player simply because of the ratings system implications. The fact that some players may behave unethically to meta-game based on the points ranking or other rating system is not a very good argument for abolishing or omitting such systems, since those players should not be doing that anyways. I would consider players choosing to abuse the system in non-anon games as inappropriate meta-gaming behavior, similar to targeting or favoring a player simply because or his win ratio, points standing, or whatever other non-in-game reason. I think a practical way to avoid such issues would be to encourage anonymous games. Perhaps even diminishing the overall ratings impact of non-anon games may be an option if it proves to be that players are predominantly attempting to abuse the system, however, I think I have a bit more faith that the majority of players here have a good sense of sportsmanship and that it won't be a major issue.

3) Do you have any specific alternatives to propose?

I would be very interested to hear any specific ideas for improving this system or for any different system that could at least be tried in parallel.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
22 Feb 13 UTC
Guys,
unfortunately I am not the oil lamp’s Genie:
it is quite obvious that through an algorithm I cannot remove the metagaming occurrence from users with a pre-set intention to metagame. Neither I can remove the grudge from 2 users that have been hitting themselves below the belt in a recent game.

If some of you is convinced that the incidence of those metagaming behaviour is so high… just play Anon, or, more strictly, play invitational games. You’ll have your mind and your hands free of those thoughts. I second Yebellz, I have no magic formulas for this issue.

This said, I desire that the rating system does not encourage metagaming further, thing that is likely to happen IMO if we keep focusing on the concept of “relative result”.

And Ruffhaus,
“It seems you're asking for then is a sytem that ignores the strength of the opposition“
Definitely not.
Please read more carefully before posting. I put 6 asterisks in my previous message for a reason.
Decima Legio (1987 D)
22 Feb 13 UTC
As per Yebellz point #3: certainly.
I’m not used to unproductive critics.

Yebellz,
I see where you come from, it’s indeed a blessing that you came to this discussion, your presence shall surely help.
…but you came to this discussion halfway, and apparently (I may be wrong with this and in this case I apologize in advance) you didn’t bother to read the previous messages. I know, it’s a boring task, this thread consists of 500 replies, but one like you should be able to discern easily the replies that are worth to be read from those that are just noise with respect to the topic.

In my opinion, since 45 days of discussion, there have been 4 significant proposals that take in account the strength of opposition:
Oli’s, Devonian’s, mine, yours.

I’ve analysed the shortcomings of Oli’s model and yours. I’d like someone with your background to do the same operation on Devonian’s model and mine. By now I would recommend to stay on the WTA case for all the models, since the PPSC case is correctly approached only in Devonian’s model currently.

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734 replies
Anon (?? D)
26 Jun 13 UTC
EUROPE 1939-GAME (bet set to 49)
gameID=14955

A nice map taking place in a very interesting time. Come and join, I hope we all are good communicators!
4 replies
Open
SandgooseXXI (1294 D)
28 Jun 13 UTC
Country switch
Just a question on this. Say I take over a game where a player is literally a year from burning to nothing and gets the defeat, is that put on my record?!
8 replies
Open
Synapse (814 D)
27 Jun 13 UTC
Sitter needed
From tomorrow until 11th July
4 replies
Open
KICEMEN17 (1075 D)
27 Jun 13 UTC
Sitter Needed June 30th-July 6th
Hello all. I'm gone on a trip from June 30th- July 6th. If anyone could watch over my account I would be very grateful. I'm in 6 games, pretty solid position in each. I hate to ask for an extend in all these games, as I see it unfair to the players. The reason I'm in many games (I've known about this trip) is because I thought where I was going had internet. This is not correct!
16 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
27 Jun 13 UTC
Seeking sitter(s) for Known World 901 anon gunboats
Friday through Monday morning. Great positions! PM if interested.

http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=14585
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=14313
1 reply
Open
The Ambassador (2276 D (B))
26 Jun 13 UTC
Aussie politics
Been quiet of late...

(More below)
22 replies
Open
fadethru (1125 D)
26 Jun 13 UTC
World Wide Gunboat looking for 17 players. Quick turns. no meta....

http://vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=14985
http://vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=14984
Thanks!
0 replies
Open
Jimbozig (1179 D)
17 Jun 13 UTC
Competitive Gunboat
Looking for some experienced players who want to play WTA gunboat game. Post if interested, will select variants based on responses.
15 replies
Open
gopher27 (1606 D Mod)
24 Jun 13 UTC
Leif not a cheater as far as I know
In a now closed and locked thread Leif replied to something I said.
11 replies
Open
kaner406 (2088 D Mod (B))
26 Jun 13 UTC
yay!
Go Rudd!
1 reply
Open
Anon (?? D)
19 Jun 13 UTC
Chaos anyone?
1 reply
Open
Utom (1227 D)
25 Jun 13 UTC
High Stakes Star
Why are all the games I am playing in marked with a High Stakes Star .. even though they are all relatively low stakes including one of 3 DPoints?
4 replies
Open
SandgooseXXI (1294 D)
24 Jun 13 UTC
How many games you playin?
The number of games Sandgoose is in...is too damn high!
23 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
25 Jun 13 UTC
WTA Gunboat gameID=14966
-buck the tiger's odds-
Fall of the American Empire, 35 D buy-in, 16 hour phases
experienced and reliable players- join up!
0 replies
Open
KICEMEN17 (1075 D)
25 Jun 13 UTC
Featured Games
Can someone explain to me why every single game I'm in is starred as a featured game? Some are like, 5 point buy ins.... Is anyone else seeing this?
3 replies
Open
Gumers (1801 D)
21 Jun 13 UTC
MODs protecting cheaters! And punishing the victim´s (ME) - revealed
76 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
23 Jun 13 UTC
Buttergoose Tournament - Urgent Announcement
A player has been banned so Iran is in CD in the Round 1 game (gameID=14592) of the tournament. in order for the tournament to progress fairly, we strongly desire a replacement for Iran. Rules to the tournament are here: thread=41653
3 replies
Open
President Eden (1588 D)
22 Jun 13 UTC
New feature proposal: No-contest voting option
In Gumers's thread I proposed a no-contest vote option, which would essentially act as a cancel which keeps games on the record for later review. Oli and/or other devs, how feasible would it be to get such a voting option?
15 replies
Open
fasces349 (1007 D)
22 Jun 13 UTC
Sitter wanted
On Monday I will be leaving on vacation and may not have internet access. I'm not doing particularly well in any of my games but if anyone wants to take over my spots for whatever reason, PM.
gameID=11622
gameID=14493
gameID=14018
0 replies
Open
Gumers (1801 D)
21 Jun 13 UTC
MODs protecting cheaters!
I cant believe this is actualy happening and I´ll wait for their answers and final decision before exposing the facts here!
9 replies
Open
Anon (?? D)
21 Jun 13 UTC
EUROPE 1939-GAME WITH HIGH BET
5 out of 8 have joined now. We need 3 more to join. The bet is set to 100. COME ON NOW, join what surely will be a quality-game!

gameID=14834
0 replies
Open
Firehawk (1231 D)
19 Jun 13 UTC
1st Crusade
I need a few more testers for the second test of the first crusade map. http://lab.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=96
Thanks! :)
8 replies
Open
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