@tobi1.
There are lots of good points in your last posts to me, but there's also some fault you can now see more easily.
Let me give some note on your quotes, then I'll try to recap it all in a longer speech.
"If I buy Pounds for example, you and amisond will get higher on the ranking list of net values.
So what do think? What currency should we buy next turn? Or should I save my money like last turn, hoping that some of the facts we've already pointed out will suddenly vanish, so I could by a currency without somebody else profits?
I don't think the values will drop the next turns. Waiting isn't a good option if we want to be on an upper rank at the end of the game.
I HAVE to buy something. And I'm sure that either you or Devo or Amby or drano or all of you will make more profit than me or any other player who buys something next turn."
* Yes tobi, these points are all logic. But you seem to forget that what is right to do doesn't depend only on "static" numbers (and static numbers say "don't buy Lire" most of all) but it mainly depends on what the others do (what numbers will move and how?). Bourse is a game of Diplomacy. Trying to know/understand/guess what the other will do, it's essential. And there are tactics and strategies. Let me do this comparison:
- when you buy a currency you move/attack a SC. (and you may see who hold/sell as those who hold/support hold )
- if you find one (or more) ally who buys the same currency you're buying, you've found a support move for your move (tactical diplomacy)
- if you bought more than what was sold, you have a gain (and we could say you took a SC and had a tactical victory)
So the question is: when you play regular Diplomacy do you always take any SC you can? Do you always take any SC just because it's easy to take? No, you know SCs are good and you need 18 to win, but you also know that would not be the right strategy. That's why England never tried Belgium and Germany never tried Holland and/or Sweden. Not because those SCs were worthless, but because there were strategical reasons. An ally is worth more than a SC. Or, even without an alliance, you may feel that grabbing a SC from a enemy of your enemy might disvantage you. So a good battle is not always a good step towards the final victory.
IF you HAVE to buy something and what you have to buy, depends on 3 things: a sight at the Board (at the static numbers), a ear to rumors (what numbers will move), what is my strategy / does it need a change.
- - -
"First of all you haven't answered my question. You always say "don't buy Lire". OK, In your opinion I shouldn't buy Lire. Why? Because Devo will profit. OK, let's find a currency where nobody will make more profit than me. Oh, there is no currency cause I'm not the "king of a currency". Do you mean I shouldn't buy anything? Or if I was the king of a currency, should I buy only this currency? I'm confused .... ;-)
*I know you're confused. "let's find a currency where nobody will make more profit than me." well.... gman314 found it!
- - -
" Don't see a reason to read my table in another way. You only pointed out who profits most."
*It's not (or not only) WHO profits the most. It's mainly WHICH CURRENCY is most dangerous.
- - -
"This is a nice example that the Net Worth doesn't say who's the winner at the moment."
*Current VPs say it even less. Since the TOTAL Net Worth rises each turn (we're now at 313,000$ that is +90,000$ since last turn) RELATIVE Net Worth looks the best.
But....
"3. As gman pointed out not the Net Worth is important but your Available Worth."
*Agreed, AW is a thing you should always look at. But I don't believe it's as important as RNW, IE: even if D33 had his 10.390,48 NW (= only 3.24% RNW now) all avaliable as cash Dollars, I couldn't see him as a threat.
- - -
"On the other hand you can't compare the raise of Crowns with a hypothetical raise of Lire. After the Crown raised the value was several times greater than before ($0,22 -> $3,8). If everybody of us buys 500 Lire the value would raise $0,50. The value won't even doubles ..."
*"buys 500 Lire the value would raise $0,50"
Sorry. Messed up something in my brain. Players could buy more than 500 Lire, but the value still won't be around 17 times greater after everybody buys Lire like what has happened to with Crowns."
*Yes of course you can't. My example was like "Do you remember what I did with an avaliable 2%RNW when EVERYBODY were buying tons of Crowns? Well, imagine what can do Devonian now with his 3.3%RNW avaliable in cash Dollars (+ something more if he sells 500 Crowns) if he finds a Currency that everybody's buying. So since it looked to me that you were playing the trumpet of "Guys, let's all buy Lire!" , and in fact you bought, I was really scared Devo had found what to buy.
- - -
*Italy doesn't look to be eliminated"
"Austria, Russia, Germany and England as well. You could say that e.g. Germany had not a great chance of winning because it's in the middle, but everybody who played a few diplomacy-games can tell you that nearly everything is possible if a player is a good diplomat. We can't read any message between the players (apart from public chat)."
*Ok, agreed. So why focus only on Lira? Because it's cheap! It's an easy SC to grab, no matter the strategical consequences! :-)
_ _ _ _ _ _
Ok, let me organize my thoughts into a complete final speech. But first, let's have a break, have a coffee and read a stat of what just happened.
_____________________________________________________
Here you find, for each player, current Net Worth and current Relative Net Worth. In parenthesis, you find the variation from the previous turn: + is more/better and - is less/worse. I've added the VPs also, for what they might mean now (the only time they have a meaning is right after the end of the game).
Players are ranked Rk according to their RNT, but since this is a "what is just happened?" table, they are sorted according their variation of RNT since last turn.
...Rk.......Name................VPs.................NW........................RNT.................
..6..(+2)..amisond........666.(+190)..30628.(+11358)...9,54%...(+2,12%)
..2..(+3)..Devonian......956.(+266)..44339.(+13208)..13,81%..(+1,82%)
..3..(+1)..gman314......916.(+200)..42742.(+11173)..13,31%...(+1,15%)
10..(.=.)..Diplomat33..210.(+121)..10390...(+3075)....3,24%...(+0,42%)
..8..(-1)..hiporox..........647.(+109)...25814...(+4864)....8,04%....(-0,03%)
..4..(-1)..tobi1............1010.(+300)...39312...(+6595)..12,24%....(-0,36%)
..9..(.=.)..L.Podolsky...438.....(+1)....17622...(+2069)....5,49%....(-0,50%)
..7..(-1)..drano019......847.....(.=.)....27766...(+2524)....8,65%....(-1,07%)
..5..(-3)..Amby.............960...(-38)....37403...(+4094)...11,65%....(-1,18%)
..1..(.=.)..Guaroz.......1090..(-130)...45075...(+2495)...14,04%....(-2,36%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS.................7743(+1019)..321091.(+61455).....100%............(0%)
________________________________________________________________
Drunk your coffee? :-)
Well, now it should be clear what just happened and what I meant.
Let's see.
You spent all your AW (7650$) buying 4000Lire and some Mark & POUNDs.
The same did Devo, spending his AW (8700$) all in 5000 Pounds.
Both your attacks were well supported: Pound +13800, Lira +10800.
You -0.36%, he+1.82%.
You dropped 1 Rk, he jumped 3 and now he's 2nd, very close to me (not one of my best efforts this turn, uh?).
Similar tactics, similar values, very different outcomes.
What the hell happened?
In brief, you used a wrong strategy.
Devo found allies (mainly gman, who won a SC that matched a good strategy, and now he's the new King of Pound) for his move.
Also you found allies (mainly amisond). But the battle you fought was for Devo! You didn't get the throne of Lira, and just helped him sell his next set of 500Lire for 1.285$. You gained some money (you took an easy SC) but is was strategically wrong (that SC belonged to an enemy of your enemy? to an ally? not easy to make a comparison, but it was strategically wrong)
You may say "but amisond did well this turn and he bought only Lire like me!" Yes, but Devo & gman returned the favour buying where amisond was the King. So, a random recap:
- amisond (+2,12%) took an easy gain with Lire + someone bought his Pounds (a lot)
- Devonian (+1,82%) took a gain with Pounds + someone bought his Lire (a lot)
- gman314 (+1,15%) Fantastic job, my congrats! He was nothing and traded his 3rd place into kingdom of Dollar (7080$ just spent) for the throne of Pound!
- Diplomat33 (+0,42%) He smelled something in the air for Lire and Pounds and bought some of both. Not fantastic, maybe shy, only Pounds was better,... but a sure little gain. Correct.
- tobi1(-0,36%) a good gain with lira and a small one with Pound were not enough to balance the losses on Crown, Rouble and... Mark. Mark was more sold than bought. Unlucky guess or bad diplomacy? a SC lost.
- Amby (-1,18%) A small gain on Lira absolutely didn't balance the loss on everything else. Devo thank him. At least you bought some Pound...The only good news for him is that he made up some cash Dollars, increasing his AW that, as we agreed, has its importance.
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I'm sorry I didn't have before now the idea fo comparing tactics and strategy of a BourseGame with tactics and strategy of a DiplomacyGame.
Now you should have clear that what I meant was just this:
Imagine a Noob in his first game. He was told only that he has to get 18 SCs starting from 3. So he grabs any SC looks easy enough to take. Maybe he allies with another noob who was told the same and they support each other making disasters...
We're all noobs here, tobi1. David Bowie & Patsy Kensit (oh! I loved her) would say we're Absolute Beginners, because nobody can teach us.
Looks like we've just discovered that Bourse is not only a matter of tactics.
It needs strategy.
Strategy, tactics, diplomacy, moves, supports, alliances and...stabs.
It's a Diplomacy game. Just with some hundreds thousands SCs called money.... that are basically divided by 100, rounded and weighed in the end. :-)
New game
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