Guaroz, Thanks for pointing out my mediocre ranking, I'm 5th & 6th, not 4th & 5th like I thought. This makes it even more funny that anyone would be afraid of me. I am kind of enjoying the notoriety all this hysteria is giving me though.

By the way, why would I buy more lire? I have more than I want right now.

Yes. Go on selling then. :)

----------
The market is now open for Spring 1904 business
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I've made some tables showing the holdings of each player in a specific currency. You can see whose Net Value will raise most if you buy a specific currency:

Crown:
1. Guaroz.............7000
2. Devonian.........4401
3. Ambassador....4100
4. tobi1..................4000
5. gman314..........3500

Pound:
1. amisond...........5000
2. Guaroz.............4700
3. drano019.........3000
4. tobi1.................2500
5. gman314.........1500

Franc (France nearly defeated):
1. Diplomat33.....1500
L Podolski......1500
3. hiprox...............1005
4. Ambassador......950
5. amisond.............500

Mark:
1. hiprox...............5735
2. Ambassador....5000
3. gman314..........3000
4. L Podolski........2500
5. tobi1..................2000

Lire:
1. Devonian..........7001
2. gman314...........3000
3. Ambassador.....2800
4. L Podolski.........1300
5. hiprox...................600

Rouble:
1. drano019...........6950
2. Guaroz...............5500
3. tobi1...................2500
4. Ambassador.....2300
5. amisond............1700


What can we see? Every strong currency has players with a large stock of that currency. So there will be player who profits more than you every time you'd buy something of that currency. There won't be another player if you have the biggest stock of that currency.
If you know this you'll have to think about which currency to buy. Who should profit from your inventions and who shouldn't.
As we all want to be first we shouldn't buy currencies that are already held in a high amount by upper ranked payers.
The most expensive currency is the Crown. The value shows us that there are many players who already have a large stock of Currency. In addition to this Guaroz (first ranked) has more than 1 1/2 more than Devonian with the second largest stock. So Crowns are very expensive, there is a large amount of Crowns which is already bought by other players who would profit more than you, the first-ranked has a very big stock of this currency and the players will probably sell this currency cause of the high value. Many reasons to not buy this currency.
This case was very clearly. Other currencies will be a bit more difficult but finally you'll come to the solution that Lire and Mark will be the best choices for buying a new currency. You can guess this, too, if you compare the values of that currencies with other strong currencies. Compared cheap. Buying Marks Ambassador as second ranked would profit much. Buying Lire Devonian would profit much more. But Devonian is according to Net Value "only" 5th and Lire is $0,51 cheaper than Mark.

I hope this helps you to make a good decision for this turn. Hopefully not that good as my own if we don't work together.

Recap: so you're going to buy Lire because they're cheap and Devonian is only 5th. Mm. Good.
How will be ranked Devionian after this turn if he spends his 8,000 avaliable dollars buying Lire while you're all doing the same?
Or do you think that Italy will soon be dead and therefore Devo would waste his money?

But Guaroz, ifyess the mark is $0.51 more expensive, but hiprox will benefit more then you from buying that.

I'm not sure why you have a vendetta again Devonian and him holding Lires, lol

I didn't exactly say what I will do and I don't plan to do it now either.

I only want to point out that there is always somebody who profits. If I buy Pounds for example, you and amisond will get higher on the ranking list of net values.
So what do think? What currency should we buy next turn? Or should I save my money like last turn, hoping that some of the facts we've already pointed out will suddenly vanish, so I could by a currency without somebody else profits?
I don't think the values will drop the next turns. Waiting isn't a good option if we want to be on an upper rank at the end of the game.
I HAVE to buy something. And I'm sure that either you or Devo or Amby or drano or all of you will make more profit than me or any other player who buys something next turn.

@fasces
I'm totally supporting your view.

@ Tobi. You'd better read your table this way:

Crown:
1. Guaroz.............(7000)
2. Devonian.........-2599
3. Ambassador....-2900

Pound:
1. amisond...........(5000)
2. Guaroz.............-300
3. drano019.........-2000

Mark:
1. hiprox...............(5735)
2. Ambassador....-735
3. gman314..........-2735

Lire:
1. Devonian..........(7001)
2. gman314...........-4001
3. Ambassador.....-4201

Rouble:
1. drano019...........(6950)
2. Guaroz...............-1450
3. tobi1...................-4450

Lira got the highest spread (gap?) between the first and the followers. Yes, each Currency got his King, but not all Kings are equal. Devo is the Emperor of Lira

Also, what makes Lira dangerous is definitely it being cheap.
When Crown was cheap and I was sure it would be bought I invested 1870$ (= 2% of all money around in Spring 1902) in it and my Net Worth rised from 10,000 to 42,000 (from 10.8% to 17.5%)

Now Devo got 8700$ (= 3.3% of all money around now) avaliable for his next purchase. If he guess when you/we will buy Lira he will have probably won the game, because Italy doesn't look to be eliminated, ATM.
A solution could be that we don't buy them until he's an Emperor or a strong King.
He has to do some move, soon or later. He can't keep all these Dollars. Dollars don't make VPs.
I'm saying we have to wait the right time and that this right time doesn't seems to be in the next 2 or 3 turns.

In the meanwhile, each time a genius buys 100 Lire, all next sets of 500Lire Devo will sell are worth 5$ more.
This turn Devo will sell 500 Lire and make up 745$. If nobody bought Lire last turn he would have made up only 480$. Someone gave him this gift last turn: +265$ for each of the next who-knows-how-many rounds. As if Devo hadn't enough avaliable Dollars.

Tobi, I loved your stats, but they're incomplete: you totally forgot one Currency. Please reply: Who is the King of Dollar?

__________________

Just to be clear, I'm fine with Devonian and I consider him a friend. Nothing against him. On the contrary, I appreciate him as a man, as a player, as a member of this community.
Well actually, I appreciate him a lot as a player: I think he's the best player on this site. Really. I wondered if this could cloud my mind and make me paranoid about him. Well, no. I think I'm right. He can win.
And I'm sure he understands I'm doing this only because if he wins, then I lose.
Just Diplomacy. Just a game. Sorry Devo. :)

but guaroz, him having $8700 to invest means he could very well invest it all into Italy this turn, meaning the Lire will be going up no matter what. If devonian put all his money into the Lire it would rise 58 cents in value.

Thats a massive gain, its the largest any one person can single handedly make a currency rise this turn, and would give Devo $7424 without anyone else helping him. you investing $149 would give you $59 and Devo an extra $128 to his winnings.

However thinking from an investment perspective, your portfolio in Lire would rise by 39%, and Devos would rise by 0.006%. Yes Devonian will make money off the investment, but so will you...

And if you look at gains, technically the Rouble has a bigger gap then the Lire. If your not Guaroz or Drano, the gap in the Rouble is 4400. Meaning investing in the Rouble would give massive gains the not one, but two investors that your trying to beat. Both of them by slightly less then the gains your giving Devonian but overall most devastating...

Fasces - please be a little more circumspect in your observations. The investors are not commenting on how the players of nations should behave, please do not comment on either the investors strategy or how they should behave.

If you must, PM me and I will save your observations for publication in the EoG statements.

fair enough...

So, I'm working on some new rules that translate over to vDip from dip2000. I'm not saying that we implement them now, but for future Bourse games....

My suggestion for vDip Bourse:

(only alterations to the original are shown, see below for the original rules)
The major change is in rule 10.

4 an example of this is if 34499 units are sold and 567899 units are bought then the equation will be: -34400 +56700 = 22300. Aggregates of 100 are valued BEFORE the total is considered.

9 Players are required to include details of their calculations with their orders (when possible).

10 Any game can be chosen for Bourse
i) The game should be: Anonymous, and does not know that they are being Boursed. The GM should generate interest for a game of Bourse in the forum, and then PM each player individually regarding the gameID that will be Boursed (according to GM discretion).
ii) If a player of the game realises that they are in the game that is being boursed they must withdraw from the Bourse.
iii) players of Bourse can provide press; provided that they PM it to the GM. otherwise they must remain silent (see point iv.)
iv) the GM must publish player's press at the same time (in a thread) as they publish seasonal results
v) the GM must send to each player (PM) their current stock after each adjudication
vi) Players of Bourse must not UNDER ANY CURCUMSTANCES attempt to influence the course of the game.
vii) Players of Bourse must nominate a pseudonym, known only to the GM, that they will use during the course of the Bourse. This pseudonymn must be appended to the PM they send to the GM when they make their orders.
viii) The GM will only publish results using player's pseudonyms - only announcing the players' true identity at the end of the game.

-
ORIGINAL Rules:
The Diplomacy Bourse

Devised by Don Miller, with amendments by Richard Walkerdine, John Marsden, and others.

1 A Diplomacy Bourse is associated with a Diplomacy game, and runs parallel with it.

2 Any number of players may participate. Each begins with 1000 units of currency of each country in the game: Austrian Crowns, English Pounds, French Francs, German Marks, Italian Lire, Russian Roubles and Turkish Piastres. All currencies are equal at the start, each being worth $1 US. Throughout the game the value of currencies is expressed in Dollars.

3 Orders are in two parts, buying and selling. Players may never sell more than 500 units of any one currency at one time, but may buy as many as he may afford. Any surplus after purchases may be retained as a Dollar balance against future purchases. There is no limit to the number of dollars that may be withdrawn from this balance at one time, but it may never go into deficit.

4 Each time 100 units of a currency are sold its value in relation to the dollar drops 1¢. Thus if in the first season the total of all orders results in 500 more Marks being sold than bought the price of the Mark for the following season would be $0.95. Each time an aggregate of 100 units is bought the price rises similarly by 1¢. Only complete multiples of 100 units affect the price - thus if 299 more Marks were bought than sold its value would rise by only 2¢.

5 Each season the GM will list who bought and sold what, old and new prices, players' holdings and Dollar surpluses, and their net worth.

6 When a country is eliminated from the Diplomacy game (i.e. when its Winter supply centre holding is 0), the value of its currency drops to zero and all trading in that currency ceases. Other than this, the value of a currency may never fall below 1¢. There is no upper limit to the value of a currency.

7 Players may join a Bourse at any time, and will receive 1000 units of every currency still in circulation. Players are expected to play under a pseudonym.

8 When the associated Diplomacy game ends, each Bourse player's "Victory Points" will be calculated as follows: for each currency in which he has a holding, the number of blocks of 100 units of currency multiplied by the number of supply centres owned by that country in the Diplomacy game. Thus if Turkey wins with 18 centres, with France on 14 and England on 2, and a player has 6000 Pounds, 10,000 Piastres and 4000 Francs, then his VPs would be 120+1800+560 = 2480. The GM will endeavour to maintain running totals of Victory Points during the middle and end game.

9 Orders may not be made conditional. If orders are incorrect or illegal, the GM will adjust them in accordance with what he discerns to be the player's wishes. Players are asked to check adjudications for errors, since the Diplomacy game will not normally be delayed on account of Bourse errors. Players are also requested to include details of their calculations with their orders.

10 Players in the accompanying Diplomacy game may not participate in the Bourse.
.
.
.
.
.
.
so what do people think - bear in mind that this is the first attempt at Bourse on vDip and it is still in it's infancy stage...

@Guaroz

First of all you haven't answered my question. You always say "don't buy Lire". OK, In your opinion I shouldn't buy Lire. Why? Because Devo will profit. OK, let's find a currency where nobody will make more profit than me. Oh, there is no currency cause I'm not the "king of a currency". Do you mean I shouldn't buy anything? Or if I was the king of a currency, should I buy only this currency? I'm confused .... ;-)

"You'd better read this table this way ..."
Why? Everybody who have a stock of a specific currency profits. Don't see a reason to read my table in another way. You only pointed out who profits most. I tried to show who profits how much.

"Lira got the highest spread between the first and the followers"
Agree, only one player would profit if I bought this currency, instead of Rouble for example.

"When Crown was cheap and I was sure it would be bought I invested 1870$ (= 2% of all money around in Spring 1902) in it and my Net Worth rised from 10,000 to 42,000 (from 10.8% to 17.5%)"
Good point. This is a nice example that the Net Worth doesn't say who's the winner at the moment.
1. You don't need a great Net Worth to win but VP.
2. After your Net Worth changed, do you have more possibilities which could help you to win? Yes, you get much more dollars for 500 Crowns, you could sell each turn. But you can only 500 Crowns a time. We've got 5 big powers at the moment. I hope, they won't make 5-way-draw but go on fighting for a solo or a small draw. What if Austria gets defeated? Your Net Worth won't help. What if all players go on selling Crowns? You Net Worth will drop every turn if the value of your other currencies won't raise. And finally after around 9 turns (if the game won't be finished before) you'd still have around 2500 Crowns worth around $0,20, when nobody else have any Crown.
3. As gman pointed out not the Net Worth is important but your Available Worth.

On the other hand you can't compare the raise of Crowns with a hypothetical raise of Lire. After the Crown raised the value was several times greater than before ($0,22 -> $3,8). If everybody of us buys 500 Lire the value would raise $0,50. The value won't even doubles ...

"Italy doesn't look to be eliminated"
Austria, Russia, Germany and England as well. You could say that e.g. Germany had not a great chance of winning because it's in the middle, but everybody who played a few diplomacy-games can tell you that nearly everything is possible if a player is a good diplomat. We can't read any message between the players (apart from public chat).

"you totally forgot one Currency. Please reply: Who is the King of Dollar?"
Well, your right. Who has how much dollars is very important to no.
But I left it out because it's a completely different topic. The value of the Dollar doesn't raise after you've seller some other currencies ....

*"buys 500 Lire the value would raise $0,50"
Sorry. Messed up something in my brain. Players could buy more than 500 Lire, but the value still won't be around 17 times greater after everybody buys Lire like what has happened to with Crowns.

-------

The pound and the lire overtake the crown, the mark and the rouble are almost at parity. Francs continue downward as the Brits invade Marseilles. The Balkans are rapidly turning into an Austrian stomping ground.

-------

Spring 1904 currency values:

Austrian Crowns: $2.32
English Pounds: $3.42
French Francs: $0.32
German Marks: $1.95
Italian Lire: $2.57
Russian Roubles: $1.92

The total amount of each currency sold/bought is:
Austrian Crowns: 3499 sold, 0 bought = -3400, down 0.34
English Pounds: 1500 sold, 15350 bought = +13800, up 1.38
French Francs: 2500 sold, 0 bought = -2500, down 0.25
German Marks: 2000 sold, 1500 bought = -500, down 0.05
Italian Lire: 760 sold, 11562 bought = +10800, up 1.08
Russian Roubles: 2119 sold, 0 bought = -2100, down 0.21

Players' Net Worth & current Victory Points:
Devonian: $44339.46, vp = 956.52
Diplomat33: $13872.67, vp = 285.86
L Podolski: $20270.81, vp = 521
Guaroz: $45074.54, vp = 1090.14
gman314: $42741.98, vp = 916.08
tobi1: $39312, vp = 1010
drano019: -NMR-
hiprox: $25803.05, vp = 647.2
Ambassador: $37403, vp = 960
amisond: $30628, vp = 666

-------

Who holds what & what was bought and sold in Spring 1904?

Devonian: Crowns 3901(-500), Pounds 5100(+5000), Francs 0, Marks 0, Lire 6941(-60), Roubles 0, US$8.77

Diplomat33: Crowns 500, Pounds 2000(+1500), Francs 1000(-500), Marks 0, Lire 1931(+681), Roubles 0, US$590

L Podolski: Crowns 200(-500), Pounds 1000, Francs 1000(-500), Marks 3000(+500), Lire 2350(+181), Roubles 0, US$1.31

Guaroz: Crowns 6501(-499), Pounds 4200(-500), Francs, Marks 800(-500), Lire 0, Roubles 5001(-499), US$4466.3

gman314: Crowns 3000(-500), Pounds 7000(+5500), Francs 0, Marks 2500(-500), Lire 2500(-500), Roubles 201(-500), US$156.06

tobi1: Crowns 3500(-500), Pounds 3000(+500), Francs , Marks 3000(+1000), Lire 4000(+4000), Roubles 2500, US$ 2

drano019: Crowns 1000, Pounds 3000, Francs 0, Marks 650, Lire 200, Roubles 6950, US$60

hiprox: Crowns 0, Pounds 3650(+2850), Francs 505(-500), Marks 5235(-500), Lire 400(-200), Roubles 1000(-120), US$2.2

Amby: Crowns 3600(-500), Pounds 850(-500), Francs 450(-500), Marks 4500(-500), Lire 4500(+1700), Roubles 1800(-500), US$2204

amisond: Crowns 0(-500), Pounds 4500(-500), Francs 0(-500), Marks 0, Lire 0, Roubles 1200(-500), US$84

----

Please remember this is a game people. Play and enjoy, don't take it too serious. I am not your mother to smooth away any hurts that you've received, nor am I omnipresent, I too have a life.

I'll PM everyone later today as to their current stocks in holding.

Thanks!

----

There were only 6562 Lire purchased and 1259 sold so the Net trading is only 6500 - 1200 = 5300. So, the jump should only be $0.53

amisond: Crowns 0(-500), Pounds 4500(-500), Francs 0(-500), Marks 0, Lire 5000(+5000), Roubles 1200(-500), US$84

thanks for pointing that out gman - the mistake is now fixed.

L Podolski: Crowns 200(-500), Pounds 1000, Francs 1000(-500), Marks 3000(+500), Lire 1481(+181), Roubles 0, US$1.31

Diplomat33: Crowns 500, Pounds 2000(+1500), Francs 1000(-500), Marks 0, Lire 681(+681), Roubles 0, US$590

hiprox: Crowns 0, Pounds 3650(+2850), Francs 535(-500), Marks 5235(-500), Lire 400(-200), Roubles 1000(-120), US$2.2

game gets more exciting with 5 players at the top according to Net Worth and VPs :D
the diplomacy-game gets more exciting, too :D

L Podolski Crowns 200 (-500) ?

*L Podolski Crowns 1500 (-500)

pphhfh! damn typos.

L Podolski: Crowns 2000(-500), Pounds 1000, Francs 1000(-500), Marks 3000(+500), Lire 1481(+181), Roubles 0, US$1.31

Mm... Lucas had 2000 crowns last turn so tobi is right. It should be:
*L Podolski Crowns 1500 (-500)
now.

gaaarrrr!
L Podolski: Crowns 1500(-500), Pounds 1000, Francs 1000(-500), Marks 3000(+500), Lire 1481(+181), Roubles 0, US$1.31

Now it seems to be a battle between the Northern Alliance and the Lepanto Pact eh?

I didn't notice the German army moving into Bohemia when I was writing up my overview, otherwise I would have mentioned it then. (Germany annexes Bohemia, or some such)

But the Bohemia move seems to be a support instead of an annexation (?)

~ HUMOR CORNER: Last turn's FAMOUS LAST WORDS ~

*(please read: "Players' Net Worth & current Victory Points", first)

tobi1- Lire is actually not as bad a purchase as you're making it out to be.

Devo- I jumped from 5th to 4th place... by not losing value along with everyone else. Kind of funny that this is scary!

Devo - I'm 5th & 6th, not 4th & 5th like I thought. This makes it even more funny that anyone would be afraid of me. I am kind of enjoying the notoriety all this hysteria is giving me though.

Fasces - Guaroz, why are you trying to trick people into not buying Lire? Its the only safe currency under $2...

Fasces - I'm not sure why you have a vendetta again Devonian and him holding Lires, lol
*I guess now you are, lol

tobi1- @fasces I'm totally supporting your view.

tobi1 - (in the same post) You don't need a great Net Worth to win but VP. - ... - The value of the Dollar doesn't raise after you've seller some other currencies ...
*Obviousely, it doesn't. Nor it drops. But it can be quickly turned into VPs buying anything any time.

~ ~

*MWAHAHAHAHAHA :-)))))))))