Game is underway. If there is enough interest for a second one I'll start it.

If there is ever a tourney started with this, I'd be interested, but as it goes I'm a bit busy right now.

I could start whenever, but it would be best for me to start it in early September. Would that be better for you?

Interested in the tourney too, but not a second game right now.. September is good for me too!

yeah hook me up with one of these - sounds like a great idea.

Great, thanks! One pool's worth so far ;)

1) Dr. R
2) Spartan
3) Leif
4) Jimbozig
5)....

This looks really interesting. Count me in!

Here's a second game:
gameID=15556
Password: trial

We can use these games to help determine some tournament parameters.

1) Dr. R
2) Spartan
3) Leif
4) Jimbozig
5) B-RICH94
6) ....

I'm in.

I joined as well, and would be interested in a tournament if these end up leading to one.

1) Dr. R
2) Spartan
3) Leif
4) Jimbozig
5) B-RICH94
6) DoubleCapitals
7) jeremyk2142

Sweet! Maybe we'll get a full 16.

I should reiterate that the two games being played should be with this scoring system in mind, and with the goal of refining the tournament parameters, if necessary.

First game is over, congrats to mapu. Any thoughts on the tournament setup based on playing this?

I agree, congratulations mapu! And well, I was a bit worried about this before joining the game, but balance despite the randomness is a real issue. The first game proves that it can be pretty harmful. Even before any moves are made, England and Germany appear to have quite the challenge set before them in such a game. The case would be similar for Turkey or Austria if a ATRI were rolled.

I enjoyed this as a one-off game, but I think it'd be hard to implement as a tournament. There would need to be TONS of games to try to eliminate random bias and allow skill to show through. I don't want to belittle mapu's solo in any way, but I believe that Russia has the strongest position there (even stronger than France's) and it wasn't as tough to solo as other positions have it. With a scoring system that rewards solos so much and punishes survivals and defeats, any sort of inequality can get net you a big gain in the group stage. My thoughts or recommendations in a new comment:

So, my opinion is that to make a tournament out of this, some of the randomness needs to be taken out, or a "free" solo (or an easy draw, etc) needs to be worth less in the tournament score system. A couple of quick thoughts:

1) Increase number of games played:
Playing more games lessens the effects of the random starts, so having a high number of games in each stage helps balance. That said, I'm thinking in the realm of 10-15 games per stage, which is quite a lot. And like I said, since solos are high value, even two great starts out of ten games would almost guarantee a player a spot to advance.

2) Randomize, then standardize, the maps for each pool:
This might be my favorite approach. The first game for each pool of four is entirely random. After that, each of the next three games include the same four countries, but with different players in each. Then, at the end of four games, each player has been each country once, and how they did relative to the other players becomes more of the focus. This could use the same scoring system, which I would rather not change.

3) Tone down the score system/points spread:
If the finished game were a hypothetical group, mapu would be at 3, while the rest of us were at -1. I like the focus on solos, but that may be too big a mountain to climb. The only real way out of that pit is by soloing. In a round of four games, you'd need maybe ALL draws, none of which could include mapu. Meaning all a player has to do is solo once and then get one draw in the next three games to advance. In a normal tournament, that's perfectly fine. But when that solo or draw can be "helped" by getting a lucky starting position, it really doesn't prove that any skill is involved. Now in our case it was a skilled player who soloed, but I'm saying that the solo didn't definitively prove the skill level. The toned down system could be something like:
Solo-2
2/3 way Draw-1 point
4 way draw/defeat/survive-0
We could also do a system that includes half points, say 2(for a solo)/ 1.5(2 way)/ 1(3 way)/ 0.5(four way)/ 0(defeat & survive). These both reward solos, but to a lesser degree. That said, I'm not a huge fan of this idea.


All in all, I think Idea #2 could definitely solve all the problems. And would still be sufficiently random and fun. Let me know what you think!

Thanks very much for taking the time to give these suggestions. I agree that the scoring creates too big a gap. I really like your #2 suggestion, that will increase the fairness. I would maybe have the four games run at the same time, the first random and as soon as the countries are determined we could start the other three. Maybe do this two to four times for each pool, for 8-16 games, and then move on to round two. This game took a week and a half, so that should be taken into consideration for those wanting to play but worried about the number of games. It's not a 2-4 month commitment for each game, but probably that for each round.

Unbalance at the games start is fine but only if the players recognize this and play accordingly. I'm mapu win it appeared f and e wanted German dots which ultimately cost everyone the game

That is the thing that will determine most of these games - someone needs to go, but can they be eliminated without giving someone too strong a shot at a solo.

The goal should always be to win. If someone else has a solo shot you should focus all energies on restoring balance no?

I was actually a little surprised (and pleased) after the opening moves. The randomizer made it E-G-F-R and I got Russia. What this meant is Turkey, Italy, and Austria were all empty, giving me an unbalanced amount of room to roam. I thought for sure the other players would form a triple and work together from the start to stop me, but fortunately, they started attacking each other and were never able to slow my growth.

Second game just ended. Took a little longer this time! Nice job B-RICH94. Any final thoughts on this before I try to get the actual tournament underway? I'm thinking the first or second week of October but I'm flexible.

I would like in please.

In the next week or three I will PM those that have expressed interest and we'll start putting this together.

Things have been too busy here for awhile, but I'd still like to do this. Mid-December start, just in time for winter break. Add (or remove, it's been awhile) your name if interested.

1) Dr. R
2) Spartan
3) Leif
4) Jimbozig
5) B-RICH94
6) DoubleCapitals
7) jeremyk2142
8) Imagonnalose

I've PM'd those on the list. If anyone else is interested please add your name. When we have a roster we will come to a consensus on the parameters discussed above and get some games going.

bump, any more interest in this?

Those that are in, please look over some of the parameters and scoring system ideas mentioned above and list your thoughts and preferences. Include time frame and number of concurrent games you can commit to, as there have been some requests and limitations.

I'm also a fan of jeremyk2142's 2nd suggestion, where there would be four games with the same countries, each person playing each country once. We could do this with three sets of countries (12 games each round, playing 4 at a time), and have the top 2 two from each of the 2 groups advance to a final round. I like the scoring system of:

3 for a solo
2 for a 2-way draw
1 point for a 3-way draw
0 for a 4-way draw
-1 for a defeat or a survival

And I think 12 games is enough that a solo from someone else doesn't create too big of a mountain to climb.

I like to join!