lol, too late for me!

http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=11050

It's funny, I almost made a post and pm'd Amby suggesting the difficulty of playing England, primarily if it is gunboat. I found that, especially in a gunboat, there is little chance for England, only because the other 2 powers have such isolation from each other, and no choice but to contend with England. It's the only practical thing for both of them to do. There was little chance for England from the start.

Full press might be a different story, but I think this update will drastically improve 1066 gunboats.

@Rancher- I don't know if it would give England too much of an advantage, really it would give him only a better chance, because he'll probably still end up fighting the other 2 at the beginning.

Mmh, in full press games, an alliance Sweden-Normandy would be unavoidable...

Well let's see how it goes everyone. If it swings too favourably toward England there can always be a version 3 ;-)

I like 1066 better then 1066v2 because I dislike maps with odd number of scs

odd-fobia?

it removes the draw possibility, but on further realization this is a 3-player map which probably makes it better, as Hundred and Verdun are both incredibly fun because you have to stab someone several times a game if you want to win, while 1066 you only need to make 1 well timed stab, assuming you're opponents are competent in Hundred or Verdun that will never be enough.

But in any case I was one of those players who had won as all 3-countries and 2-way drew as all countries, so balance wasn't 2 much of an issue. Granted as England it required a couple more guesses (as in guessing what your opponent is doing) but I am honestly convinced that most players do not play England properly in 1066.

Everyones problem is that they assume they will go underfire from both and that they have to defend both fronts. Even if the former is true, the latter is never true.

As England I will always go either all out Norway or all our Normandy, I will have a unit superiority in the battle I chose to wage and as long as I can defend the other line with a single unit until I can pick up 2 builds, then my chances of survival are just as high as Norways or Normandys.

One way that I think would improve Englands chances in this regard is to combine Ea and Sb or in the new map Norf and Il. This would allow England easier manoeuvrability in this regard as I could more easily transfer fleets between the Norwegian front and the Norman front.

Anyway here is the best example of how to properly play England:
gameID=5191
to all those who claim that I won because Norway NMRed in the last turn, Edi and Glas were guarenteed for me and I had a 50% chance of taking Win, which where the 3 scs I took in the last turn. Assuming he didn't NMR and guessed from where I was taking Winchester correctly, he would have had 2 disbands, and I would have had 2 builds and then with a unit count of 11-7 I would have been able to win the following year. (You need 2 of WInchester, Cean and Oslo to solo, I only had 1)

well, I can follow the orders but it would be nice if I could see the maps

gameID=5191 is map...

I can see the front page map yes, but when clicking "maps" I just see fog. I guess it's coded that way cos it's a fog variant, but it would be nice to "open" the fog once the game is finished.

Maybe this map will help:
http://vdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=5191&turn=15&mapType=large
turn=x represents the turn number, with spring 1065 being 0, autumn being 1.
You couldn't see all the maps on the same page, but you could check the map for any turn individually.

works great, thanx!

I think the changes look great. England was too disadvantaged in that variant. I think these changes shouldn't swing it too far in England's favor, but it might make playing France very challenging.

I don't mind the odd number of SC's, in fact I think it is better. The idea of a 2-way draw in a 3 player game does not seem very sporting. If it is full press, one player will not have a chance once the other two agree to a 2 way draw. This forces conflict with all players to the end.

I don't feel like the problem was solved with the V2.0 upgrade.
Naturally England's position is better, but this goes entirely to the detriment of the Normans.
The Norwegian supremacy still remains.
I'm talking about gunboat, since I have only gunboat experience with 1066.

Any early feedback from other 1066_V2.0 players?

for stats reference:
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/stats.php?variantID=55
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/stats.php?variantID=85

I agree with DL, it still doesn't seem a very even variant.

I only played one 1066, and none in the V2.0, but looking at games and at the stats, it now looks like normans are doomed, so here's a little input if it is useful. While England has better chances, the extra naval power is directly aimed at the normans, who have zero exposure with the norwegians for pretty much the entire game. I think the problem lies in the fact that even if the Normans/Norwegians were to team up on England to negate his power, which is likely, it will almost always still leave the normans in an ineffectual position against the Norwegians, who will assuredly have naval supremacy from all sides.

From the start, the Normans only have one option- to go to war with England, because:
1) its the only hope for expansion, and
2) peace w/ England serves no purpose, since Norwegians are too far away and have immediate naval supremacy.

This gives England and Norwegians various options for gameplay, but none for the Normans. As a consequence, smart Norwegian and English players can always implement that awareness into their strategy, making it very easy for one or both of them to immediately alienate the Normans, taking away all their chances.

Perhaps the revision giving England extra power should serve to contest the North Sea/Scotland region against the Norwegians, where a northern naval battle between England/Norwegians could allow for more opportunity for the Normans. For instance, one possible solution might be:
- instead of England getting an extra fleet in Norfolk, England gets fleet in York and an *extra SC (army) in Lakes district

another possible solution would be to leave England the way it is now, but give Normans an extra SC (fleet) in Flanders to increase exposure with Norwegians and give a fighting chance for their navy.

Bumb
Ambassador? Any thoughts on this?

Some good feedback guys. When Oli asked me to look at a V2 we tossed around whether to make the extra English SC in Norfolk or in Lincolnshire. At the time we felt Norfolk would be best, but a Lincolnshire fleet would change the dynamic a bit and pretty much guarantee English-Norwegian conflict.

For those who have played 1066 V2, what are your views?

I feel that the core problem in this game is Norman and Norwegian have little chance of fighting early on. England is just too in the way. Making the country in the middle stronger doesn't help the fact that Norman and Norwegian don't realistically fight.

I think it is close, and it is an excellent variant.

However, I think England is able to disable the Normans too quickly. The Normans need a little time to get a SC and for the Norwegians to come into play.

Some solutions could be:
1. Switch the fleet in London with the army in Oxford.
2. Switch the fleet in Norfolk with the army in York.

Either one or both could be done.

I’d not be enthusiast with the revision of the revision. If it is stated and recognized that the revision 2.0 has gone in the wrong direction I’d prefer stepping back to 1066_V1.0 and thinking to a different tuning of the old version.

I’d suggest not to alter 1066_V1.0 ‘s map geography. A more balanced outcome can be reached solely changing the initial units displacement.

For example changing the initial position of the Norwegian army from Hadrian wall to the isolated Highlands: that would make it easier for England to settle in the main island and keep the Norwegian breath out of York during the early game.

Or changing the fleet in Trondheim with an army, avoiding the early Norwegian naval supremacy. This would lead to traffic jam I suppose.

Else, just an idea, forcing the Norwegian player to start with 3 units (same as the Norman) instead of the current 4.

If we have to change the original map (in terms of borders and SCs), the only changes we have to consider are those reducing the distance between Normans and Norwegians.
In this case I may suggest merging Flanders with either Ecclesiastes or Free cities passage, or adding a couple of in-land passable areas (at least 1 SC) south of Free cities passage. This latter suggestion may go against the spirit of the variant which is focusing on Britain, though.

Well, I flaten both England and the Normans in a gunboat in v1 and v2 as Norway. honestly, I don't think I have the best answer here

I know this sounds counterintuitive but I think reducing the time between the Norwegians and the English might help. As it is, Norway can quietly pick coupe some SCs and then smash the weaker of the Normans or English and then sprint towards victory. I would also like to bring up the Bremen suggestion. Where the Free Cities Passage is split up and a region made into a SC to increase interaction between the Norwegians and Normans.

What I envisioned for changes
http://forum.webdiplomacy.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=672&p=5552#p5552

It looks like the Norweigians would benefit from Bremen, and they don't need any help. Other than that, the extra SC in Holland might give the everyone an additional SC to go for, possibly mixing up the battles. Also adding "the wash" slows England slightly, giving the Normans a guaranteed SC in Flanders. I also like splitting Ecc into two, allowing the Normans to take Flanders with either a fleet or army.

I think it might work... with the exception of Bremen. (Also, without Bremen, it evens out the SC's, which should make Fasces happy)

Oh, I just noticed that the North sea reaches from Trondheim to Denmark. I'm not sure I like making it so easy for the Norwegians take Denmark in the first year.

Interesting, I haven't thought of Denmark and the North Sea. Well, that's certainly something to Fasces to chew on :)

I would say if you really wanted balance you should problem add more seas in the English Channel. That will decrease the chance of a naval conflict in the early game thus encourage intereaction between Normandy and Norway

I considered that also, but I thought it didn't make sense that it would take more time to cross the English Channel than it would to cross the North Sea. That's why I was suggesting moving the English fleets upstream to Oxford, or north to York. But, after looking at airborne's map, I like his changes better. (With the exception of the Bremen SC and the enlarged North Sea space)

But that would help the Normans more then it would help the English, which are the weaker nation in the 1066 V1