Anyway, I don't have a huge amount to say about the game play. This was my first time on this map (although second to end) and I quite liked the map - very chaotic. I found some good peaceful neighbours early on and went with that, England got big but got beat back. I opted to stab VEN when I ran out of expansion path. This was a bad choice. I also think that I let Poland get out of hand and ultimately probably played a hand in making his win easier.

On another note, can I ask why every player in this game except Decima and myself voted draw after only a couple of years of gameplay? I do not particularily remember NMRs or anything. This follows a trend on this website that I really dislike, where people appear to give up on games and vote draw way prematurely. This brings me to my second point.

As of 1714 or so, there was still a very easy stalemate that Spain, Turkey and myself (Austria) could have made. We could have made it without risk, even, as Polish fleets were still away. However, Turkey kept his fleets bunched in the east AND kept the ionian sea blocked. As such, we did not have anywhere close to the fleet power to set anything up. This wasn't what cost us, though, as Turkey's inability to set and hold a line at Ukraine did.

I felt that from the moment I clicked draw that the other players were completely apathetic. Like they wanted to draw way earlier and by this point they didn't care. To me, if I cannot win a game I try to play to the end and make a stalemate to prevent a win with the minimum number of players.

Is this not how others play the game?

The players in this game were tactically strong and demonstrated this throughout the game. So, why did everyone sit idly by while Poland took the win?

I can go in and show the lines we could have had, but I would prefer to start a discussion before I spend my time if nobody cares.

I'm finishing up (hopefully) my first game in this variant now. I just wanted to say I notice many of the things Jimbozig brings up about draws and that I also try to play each game to the end and make a stalemate to prevent a win with the minimum number of players. And I do not understand players who prefer a 'survive' to a draw in any circumstance, as I have seen before here. To me, a survive is the same as an elimination is the same as a loss.

I think the players in my game wanted to draw, we were not in-fighting. But we didn't attack the line like we needed to.

Understood. Perhaps there was one player who was afraid of being eliminated if they changed the dynamics that were going on by attacking the line? I guess we'll see.

I’m rather happy about the outcome :-)

It’s been a very regular game: 10 players, no RR restrictions, only 1NMR during the whole game. That was surprising.

In the early game I bet on a partnership with Austria. It seemed to me the most reasonable choice for the mid game. If we manage to keep enemies out of the Silesian area, we will be able to develop well. The other option was Prussia, but if I let Prussia grow, they will build armies right on my back then or before... So I immediately started sending signals of friendship to Austria.
I’ve been astonished about how well we’ve been able to match our orders. The defeat of Prussia and the early containment of England were amazing. I remember I thought: “I’d like to shake the hand of this mind reader”.

Then the events in the mid-game turned to my favor: and I’ve been able to bend the defenses of Sweden, Russia, England, Turkey and ultimately Austria. This said, I recognize the campaign over Sweden, 1706-1711, as my greatest achievement during the game.
Because of the early game assistance I wasn’t keen to attack Austria, thing that I started doing after 1714, when, given the circumstances, I thought that the path to the solo was hard…but possible.

I didn’t find Turkey’s defense tactics irresistible. I managed to push him out for hundreds miles during the timespan 1711-1718. In this case, luck definitely helped me during the 1711 crucial move.

As long as we fought on, I recognized England as a skilled player, but in retrospect those 2 fleets weren’t supposed to sail for the Grand Tour in Italy.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t manage to take any SC from Spain, which is a point in his favor, but even in the case of Spain, the fleets had to take part in action. If you keep fleets in the harbors just for the fear of losing SCs (Tunis and Naples), you reduce the chances of preventing the solo.

“To me, a survive is the same as an elimination is the same as a loss.“
I agree with this sentence, only because it was a WTA game. Winner Takes All, hence, STN, Survivor Takes Nothing. These acronyms should guide the players’ actions, and the hidden one, STN, is usually underrated.
Because of this, I may understand Jimbozig’s disappointment: WTA calls for stopping the solo at all costs. Some efforts have been spent in this, not all though.

I do not disagree with anything that has been written here but I wonder about this sentence :

"WTA calls for stopping the solo at all costs."

Indeed, if I am correct, in a WTA game, the drawing players get no point at all, do they ?
As a consequence, as far as points are concerned, it doesn't change anything to draw or to survive (DTN : Drawers Take Nothing) which makes me think that I understand that a player prefers a Survived than a Defeated result.

Any thought ?

@Retillion- Drawing gives all remaining players an equal share in the points. If it is a 10 player game, and you draw 5-way, then each player doubles the points they get. if however, someone wins and the other 4 get a survive, only the winner gets points. so in WTA, A draw is much preferred to a survive. a draw is not a defeat.

@ butterhead and @ everyone that believes like him:

It seems to me that you are wrong !

Please check this page where you can search games :
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/gamelistings.php?page-games=1&gamelistType=Search&searchOn=on
When you select "Finished games" and "Winner-takes-all", you find games.

When you view them, you can see that the Drawing players have won NOTHING !

Really? than why does it say when you draw(PPSC OR WTA) "Congratulations, you have drawn with your rivals and won (insert point number here) points"

for example, a game of mine that was drawn a couple days ago(and was WTA)
"You have drawn with your rivals, and survived! You win 18 , an equal share of the pot!"

for reference:
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/points.php

1° Please look at this drawn PPSC game that has been finished on January 27 :
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=12196#gamePanel

You can clearly see, for example, that the first player has won: 8 DPoints. 8 is in green.

2° Please look at this drawn WTA game that has been finished 2 days ago :
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=11740#gamePanel

At the same place, you can see, for example, on the line of the first player : Drawn Bet: 11 DPoints. 11 is in red. That player has not won anything.

By the way, I have never received a message that says something like :
"Congratulations, you have drawn with your rivals and won (insert point number here) points".

@ butterhead, are you talking about this game :
http://www.vdiplomacy.com/board.php?gameID=11374#gamePanel

To me, it looks like you have lost your bet which was 20 DPoints and thay you haven't won any point.

I think the red text is a programming oversight. You do win the same amount of points by drawing in WTA as you would if you drew in PPSC.

If any of you is so sure about that question, why don't 2 players create now a 2-player WTA game with a nice bet, let's say 50 or 100 DPoints and then they will draw right away ? That would barely take you 2 minutes.
-> At least we would all know finally for sure how this thing works.

butterhead, Decima Legio, Captainmeme, anyone else, please prove me that I am wrong.

Unfortunately, 2-player games have a 1 point bet, always. However, we can still test the system - note that I am now on 340 , having joined the game.

gameID=12282
Password: test

Are you joining?

Captainmeme, thank you very much for your gesture :)
I will not join that game because I believe (maybe I am wrong but please understand that I think that I know) that this game will cost 1 DPoint to the players who will play it and I do not want to lose 1 DPoint like this.
If any other player wants to do it, I will appreciate it very much.

Okay - anyone else online who doesn't mind losing one point if I'm wrong? (Although I'm pretty certain I'm not wrong).

Retillion, seriously?

I don't feel like I have to prove something.
If the link to the house rules in not enough I can tell you that thousands of Vdip users have experienced draws in WTA games. Me included. I can guarantee that the pot is equally divided among the drawing countries.
As Captainmeme said, it's just a programming oversight.

@Retillion- no, not that game. the game I posted my message from was a more recent game. The draw is the same as in PPSC.

And to prove it, I have joined captainmeme's game. note that the pot is 2. we will now draw the game. we will both receive a point back(an equal share of the pot).

Okay, before the game is drawn, Butterhead and I have 84 and 340 respectively.

And what do you know! 85 and 341!!!

Decima Legio, yes, seriously : I have played one WTA game on webdiplomacy (I know that maybe it is different here) and none of the players got any points !

My try for a "proof" would simply be refuted by what ?

- By people telling me that "it's just a programming oversight". Ha ! Ha ! Is that a serious argument ?
- Your personal guarantee ? What if I tell you that I guarantee you that I kow better than you the answer to this question ? Not very convincing, is it ?

You don't feel like you have to prove something. Why not ? Shouldn't we all be looking for the truth ?
-> Why wouldn't you join Captainmeme's game ? This would end the discussion.

Again, we wrote simultaneously !

Thank you very much Captainmeme and butterhead : you were right and I am glad that I have learned something :)

Oh and for future reference it's the same over on webdiplomacy. if there was a game where nobody received points in a draw it was a bug in that particular game.

I went for draw early to convince England not to attack me as we worked our way through Italy and France. In hindsight I should have shifted fleets earlier to the Atlantic to stop Poland, but I tend to hold back after being stabbed too many times when an ally sees a chance to get a solo. I did have that happen to me here

http://www.vdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=11208#gamePanel

when England attacked me as I was pushing back Italy. He cancelled his draw when he had a chance to get my unprotected SCs.

This thread was a waste, unfortunately.